4 ms·

>There's been a rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately It's no different than the general anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The f

by mhurron 15y ago

>There's been a rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately It's no different than the general anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The feeling that you can learn it all on your own without anyone telling or anyone's help is what is driving so many peoples thought processes recently. That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and nothing more doesn't help either.

orky56 15y ago
The problem is when college doesn't even provide that job training. Students put their whole effort into college and then graduate without any skills employers are looking for. With massive debt from four years of loans and no one wanting to hire you, students find it harder to stomach this traditional path to a job and the American dream. I've read a few op-eds and they mention that vocational schools in the US do provide the training employers are looking for but their status is looked down upon within society since historically this has been for "blue-collar" jobs. Well those blue-collar jobs are paying upwards of $50k which is much higher than being unemployed. So now it's on the student. Get the degree with its pros and cons, get just the skills with its pros and cons, or do both. It's going to be harder but college is an investment, not just of money but also time and energy. If it's done properly (maybe not in the most traditional way), it will pay off for the rest of your life.
MaxGabriel 15y ago
Higher education isn't just job training, but that's what many people want, especially for the cost.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
...anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The feeling that you can learn it all on your own without anyone telling or anyone's help... How is the idea that you can use your own intellect and educate yourself anti-intellectual?
- kenjackson 15y ago
  I think the anti-intellectual sentiment is a bit broader. I'd define it as, "Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." The anti-intellectual movement is the belief that everyone is biased, and since everyone is biased their scientific position is no more correct than mine. This started more than a decade ago, and I used to joke that one day people would say, "Science and Nature are left wing rags". About three months ago I actually had a debate where someone said almost exactly that -- "All those papers published in science journals are by Democrats!" I love self-education (although I'm of the camp that believes all education is self-education, even when you go to college) -- but the anti-intellectual movement is taking a fringe left-wing pursuit from the 60s (relativism) and making it mainstream for the right-wing in this century.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    "Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." Insofar as it pertains to this conversation, that isn't the belief. The belief regarding college is "I can learn just as well by reading books written by the top experts as I can from listening to third rate experts talk about the topic in person."
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      I'm not really sure what you mean. The person who posted the anti-intellectual comment was speaking about the growing tide in the US, which is very much about what I posted. With respect to the article directly, it's really not about reading books written by top experts vs lectures from third rate experts -- unless he's reading CLR or Papadimitriou or Ullman. Really the article is about vocational education vs a liberal arts education. The complaint isn't, "My harmonic analysis professor clearly doesn't have the understanding of a Terrence Tao". The argument is more like, "In school I'm learning about organic chemistry and b-trees, but what I really want to learn is how to use this new framework to talk to this NoSQL store to display data in this web view. Where's that class?"
tseabrooks 15y ago
I was going to mention what I see as a growing Anti-Intellectualism in America but felt it may have veered to far off course. I think the higher-ed as job training is a real problem. I would never dream of trying to find a job in the humanities but I cherish my exposure and learning in those areas. However, as someone pointed out below; Many people do just want job training. Perhaps, the solution is to offer traditional college and job training along side each other at the same institutions and let students pick which "track" they need / prefer.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  There's no need to do that when vocational colleges already exist. As others have stated here, there's a stigma against vocational colleges. Because they're not as prestigious as universities, people have the misconception that the education or training they receive at vocational colleges is somehow inferior, when in reality they serve different functions. You also have community college for when you want a more traditional college experience, but also want job training.
pm90 15y ago
That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and nothing more doesn't help either. Actually this might be the main reason why college enrollments have gone through the roof recently, prompting the anti-college sentiment in the first place. If all you want to do is learn programming, you can do it at home too. But dorm life, liberal arts etc. might be something that you will only do when in college

by mhurron 15y ago

orky56 15y ago

The problem is when college doesn't even provide that job training. Students put their whole effort into college and then graduate without any skills employers are looking for. With massive debt from four years of loans and no one wanting to hire you, students find it harder to stomach this traditional path to a job and the American dream. I've read a few op-eds and they mention that vocational schools in the US do provide the training employers are looking for but their status is looked down upon within society since historically this has been for "blue-collar" jobs. Well those blue-collar jobs are paying upwards of $50k which is much higher than being unemployed. So now it's on the student. Get the degree with its pros and cons, get just the skills with its pros and cons, or do both. It's going to be harder but college is an investment, not just of money but also time and energy. If it's done properly (maybe not in the most traditional way), it will pay off for the rest of your life.

MaxGabriel 15y ago

Higher education isn't just job training, but that's what many people want, especially for the cost.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

...anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The feeling that you can learn it all on your own without anyone telling or anyone's help... How is the idea that you can use your own intellect and educate yourself anti-intellectual?

kenjackson 15y ago
I think the anti-intellectual sentiment is a bit broader. I'd define it as, "Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." The anti-intellectual movement is the belief that everyone is biased, and since everyone is biased their scientific position is no more correct than mine. This started more than a decade ago, and I used to joke that one day people would say, "Science and Nature are left wing rags". About three months ago I actually had a debate where someone said almost exactly that -- "All those papers published in science journals are by Democrats!" I love self-education (although I'm of the camp that believes all education is self-education, even when you go to college) -- but the anti-intellectual movement is taking a fringe left-wing pursuit from the 60s (relativism) and making it mainstream for the right-wing in this century.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  "Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." Insofar as it pertains to this conversation, that isn't the belief. The belief regarding college is "I can learn just as well by reading books written by the top experts as I can from listening to third rate experts talk about the topic in person."
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    I'm not really sure what you mean. The person who posted the anti-intellectual comment was speaking about the growing tide in the US, which is very much about what I posted. With respect to the article directly, it's really not about reading books written by top experts vs lectures from third rate experts -- unless he's reading CLR or Papadimitriou or Ullman. Really the article is about vocational education vs a liberal arts education. The complaint isn't, "My harmonic analysis professor clearly doesn't have the understanding of a Terrence Tao". The argument is more like, "In school I'm learning about organic chemistry and b-trees, but what I really want to learn is how to use this new framework to talk to this NoSQL store to display data in this web view. Where's that class?"

tseabrooks 15y ago

I was going to mention what I see as a growing Anti-Intellectualism in America but felt it may have veered to far off course. I think the higher-ed as job training is a real problem. I would never dream of trying to find a job in the humanities but I cherish my exposure and learning in those areas. However, as someone pointed out below; Many people do just want job training. Perhaps, the solution is to offer traditional college and job training along side each other at the same institutions and let students pick which "track" they need / prefer.

rsanchez1 15y ago
There's no need to do that when vocational colleges already exist. As others have stated here, there's a stigma against vocational colleges. Because they're not as prestigious as universities, people have the misconception that the education or training they receive at vocational colleges is somehow inferior, when in reality they serve different functions. You also have community college for when you want a more traditional college experience, but also want job training.

pm90 15y ago

That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and nothing more doesn't help either. Actually this might be the main reason why college enrollments have gone through the roof recently, prompting the anti-college sentiment in the first place. If all you want to do is learn programming, you can do it at home too. But dorm life, liberal arts etc. might be something that you will only do when in college