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I think implying people aren't able to adequately prepare for hurricanes in Louisiana is begging the question. I've lived here for almost 40 years, through a lo

by Brybry 3y ago

I think implying people aren't able to adequately prepare for hurricanes in Louisiana is begging the question. I've lived here for almost 40 years, through a lot of hurricanes, and that is not my experience. Sure, some shelves might be bare the day before the storm but that doesn't mean people aren't prepared, that they aren't able to get the things they need, or that the current method does not work. And when the power is out for a week+ for a whole region (goes beyond the supplies urban locals typically prepare) then government uses the national guard to hand out MREs and/or bottled water in commercial parking lots. This is very rare.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> some shelves might be bare the day before the storm but that doesn't mean people aren't prepared I remember a study on New York following Hurricane Sandy. Fuel was out. Drugs were supplied. Because nobody was incentivised to bring in extra fuel before the hurricane hit; there was no margin to incentivise it. But there was an incentive to bring in drugs, because dealers could make a killing selling at a premium. Price-gouging laws are the price of keeping the peace with a population illiterate in basic economics. (And in any case, there is always a black market in play.)
- Brybry 3y ago
  Gas stations can't pump if they don't have power. That's generally why there's a lack of fuel. Sometimes they have backup power or power companies prioritize them. In the south, local media will help notify which gas stations are operable. More fuel won't solve that problem. For Sandy they had more issues than just pumps without power. 40% of their supply was reduced before the storm even hit from shutting down refineries. And then the refineries suffered damage. Storage tanks were damaged. Pipelines were inoperative. They couldn't fill delivery trucks. [1][2] For a typical hurricane, why would there even need to be extra fuel over normal supply? In a hurricane people are driving less. They're staying home. The only extra fuel will be from generators and hoarders. Price increases would probably decrease hoarders but it wouldn't turn refineries back on and magically make more gas. [1] https://www.preventionweb.net/english/hyogo/gar/2015/en/bgdocs/Haraguchi%20and%20Kim,%202014.pdf https://www.preventionweb.net/english/hyogo/gar/2015/en/bgdo... [pdf][page 6] [2] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sandy-storm-anniversary/remember-the-gas-shortage-after-sandy-is-energy-infrastructure-better-fortified-now/3926937/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sandy-storm-anniversar...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > stations can't pump if they don't have power. That's generally why there's a lack of fuel. They’re a gas station. They’re sitting on a fuel source. Why do you think it isn’t economical to install a generator? (Or even lease one.) > why would there even need to be extra fuel over normal supply Emergency vehicles. Trucks bringing supplies for repairs. People checking in on each other. People coming back from evacuation or leaving to find peace of mind. Also returning to normal life. And it’s not about extra fuel. It’s about maintaining supplies. New shipments aren’t coming in, which means supplies need to be rationed. New shipments come in slower than they would if prices could rise; nobody serving the general population is incentivised to rush. > increases would probably decrease hoarders but it wouldn't turn refineries back on and magically make more gas Emergency shortages are all about distribution, not production. There is plenty of gas in the world in a disaster. It just isn’t making it to disaster victims. (Well, it is. But you have the pay the cab driver cash to pay the guy by Riverside Park for a can at $20/gallon.)
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I remember fueling up in Chalmette right before Ida, early in the morning, and by the evening or the next day the gas station was out of fuel. Would no price gouging laws have allowed them to inflate the price so much that people couldn’t afford to buy a day early like I did to be able to evacuate?
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  Government had to provide basic services during a time of emergency and there are regulations in place to stop people taking advantage of vulnerable people. Sounds good, I'd pay tax money toward it.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Government had to provide basic services during a time of emergency There were widespread fuel shortages. > regulations in place to stop people taking advantage of vulnerable people There were no fuel shortages for folks who could buy on the black market. > Sounds good In a sense, the system works. The part of the population that feels good with these rules sits out of the market. The part that thinks it’s silly has access, in part thanks to the shortages/forced curtailment caused by regulation in the legal market, albeit at a steeper mark-up (plus the inherent risks to black market trading).

by Brybry 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> some shelves might be bare the day before the storm but that doesn't mean people aren't prepared I remember a study on New York following Hurricane Sandy. Fuel was out. Drugs were supplied. Because nobody was incentivised to bring in extra fuel before the hurricane hit; there was no margin to incentivise it. But there was an incentive to bring in drugs, because dealers could make a killing selling at a premium. Price-gouging laws are the price of keeping the peace with a population illiterate in basic economics. (And in any case, there is always a black market in play.)

Brybry 3y ago
Gas stations can't pump if they don't have power. That's generally why there's a lack of fuel. Sometimes they have backup power or power companies prioritize them. In the south, local media will help notify which gas stations are operable. More fuel won't solve that problem. For Sandy they had more issues than just pumps without power. 40% of their supply was reduced before the storm even hit from shutting down refineries. And then the refineries suffered damage. Storage tanks were damaged. Pipelines were inoperative. They couldn't fill delivery trucks. [1][2] For a typical hurricane, why would there even need to be extra fuel over normal supply? In a hurricane people are driving less. They're staying home. The only extra fuel will be from generators and hoarders. Price increases would probably decrease hoarders but it wouldn't turn refineries back on and magically make more gas. [1] https://www.preventionweb.net/english/hyogo/gar/2015/en/bgdocs/Haraguchi%20and%20Kim,%202014.pdf https://www.preventionweb.net/english/hyogo/gar/2015/en/bgdo... [pdf][page 6] [2] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sandy-storm-anniversary/remember-the-gas-shortage-after-sandy-is-energy-infrastructure-better-fortified-now/3926937/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sandy-storm-anniversar...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > stations can't pump if they don't have power. That's generally why there's a lack of fuel. They’re a gas station. They’re sitting on a fuel source. Why do you think it isn’t economical to install a generator? (Or even lease one.) > why would there even need to be extra fuel over normal supply Emergency vehicles. Trucks bringing supplies for repairs. People checking in on each other. People coming back from evacuation or leaving to find peace of mind. Also returning to normal life. And it’s not about extra fuel. It’s about maintaining supplies. New shipments aren’t coming in, which means supplies need to be rationed. New shipments come in slower than they would if prices could rise; nobody serving the general population is incentivised to rush. > increases would probably decrease hoarders but it wouldn't turn refineries back on and magically make more gas Emergency shortages are all about distribution, not production. There is plenty of gas in the world in a disaster. It just isn’t making it to disaster victims. (Well, it is. But you have the pay the cab driver cash to pay the guy by Riverside Park for a can at $20/gallon.)
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I remember fueling up in Chalmette right before Ida, early in the morning, and by the evening or the next day the gas station was out of fuel. Would no price gouging laws have allowed them to inflate the price so much that people couldn’t afford to buy a day early like I did to be able to evacuate?
jabradoodle 3y ago
Government had to provide basic services during a time of emergency and there are regulations in place to stop people taking advantage of vulnerable people. Sounds good, I'd pay tax money toward it.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Government had to provide basic services during a time of emergency There were widespread fuel shortages. > regulations in place to stop people taking advantage of vulnerable people There were no fuel shortages for folks who could buy on the black market. > Sounds good In a sense, the system works. The part of the population that feels good with these rules sits out of the market. The part that thinks it’s silly has access, in part thanks to the shortages/forced curtailment caused by regulation in the legal market, albeit at a steeper mark-up (plus the inherent risks to black market trading).