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> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?

by boppo1 3y ago

ericmay 3y ago
We didn’t use to call it war, so you’re wrong about that. We used the term “intervention” to describe limited military action. Countries throughout history have conducted interventions as opposed to full-scale war. Russia’s assault on Ukraine isn’t an intervention and is instead a war and we know this because of the size and scale of the operation but also the intentions of the operation, which, are to take over the entire country of Ukraine.
- objektif 3y ago
  Sounds like a bunch of wars we were engaged in the ME for no reason.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Don't you mean interventions? ;-)
- abfan1127 3y ago
  cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
legutierr 3y ago
If Lybian forces were on the verge of committing war crimes and killing thousands, then "intervention" would be an appropriate word to describe what the Western powers did. They "intervened" to prevent an imminent atrocity, if you believe them. And I am inclined to believe them, not because of what Western governments have said, but because the whole Arab Spring played out in real time on social media. I agree that what happened to Gaddafi himself was horrific. It would have been a much better thing if he had been arrested and brought before a tribunal. But he was killed by Libyans, who were angry about the Libyans that Gaddafi himself had killed. The contribution that Western Governments made to those events was to stop the killing of thousands of people who opposed the regime. Arguing against intervention is arguing in favor of what would have happened without intervention—which is, effectively, what we have seen in Syria. Now, was Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the verge of murdering tens of thousands? Were Ukranian forces gathered, ready to rain artillery shells down on a major Ukrainian city? If not, I don't think it would be appropriate to describe the Russian invasion as an "intervention". What would Putin have been "intervening" in? Ukranian self-determination?
- logicchains 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mymac 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - objektif 3y ago
      I do not think he was trying to justify the war was he?
    - CapricornNoble 3y ago
      > This is naked Russian propaganda masquerading as enlightened discourse. OSCE via Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... Unless Reuters is "naked Russian propaganda" now, there was definitely an uptick in kinetic activity in the Donbas, with most of it falling on the Separatist side of the line of control.
      - mymac 3y ago
        Russia has given each and every excuse that you could possibly come up with in 2014 and again in 2022. If you're a defense industry consultant I'd expect you to be more than conversant with the run-up to the second episode of this war and not to swallow such things hook, line and sinker. Note that nowhere in that article does it say that the Ukrainian side did that. For all we know this was a provocation, as Russia is won't to do. Alternative explanations have been present many times and none of them have stuck. Also note that there was an endless build-up prior to the second phase of this invasion which had absolutely nothing to do with that particular incident even if it was done by the Ukrainian side, which I highly doubt given the fact that it was one of the pretexts used. Finally: in that region there have been many actions by either side and no matter what: the Ukrainians are well within their right to kick out an invader, the myth of the separatists has been debunked solidly, until the little green men showed up there was no meaningful separatist activity.

> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?

by boppo1 3y ago

> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?

We didn’t use to call it war, so you’re wrong about that. We used the term “intervention” to describe limited military action. Countries throughout history have conducted interventions as opposed to full-scale war. Russia’s assault on Ukraine isn’t an intervention and is instead a war and we know this because of the size and scale of the operation but also the intentions of the operation, which, are to take over the entire country of Ukraine.

objektif 3y ago
Sounds like a bunch of wars we were engaged in the ME for no reason.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Don't you mean interventions? ;-)
abfan1127 3y ago
cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

legutierr 3y ago

If Lybian forces were on the verge of committing war crimes and killing thousands, then "intervention" would be an appropriate word to describe what the Western powers did. They "intervened" to prevent an imminent atrocity, if you believe them. And I am inclined to believe them, not because of what Western governments have said, but because the whole Arab Spring played out in real time on social media. I agree that what happened to Gaddafi himself was horrific. It would have been a much better thing if he had been arrested and brought before a tribunal. But he was killed by Libyans, who were angry about the Libyans that Gaddafi himself had killed. The contribution that Western Governments made to those events was to stop the killing of thousands of people who opposed the regime. Arguing against intervention is arguing in favor of what would have happened without intervention—which is, effectively, what we have seen in Syria. Now, was Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the verge of murdering tens of thousands? Were Ukranian forces gathered, ready to rain artillery shells down on a major Ukrainian city? If not, I don't think it would be appropriate to describe the Russian invasion as an "intervention". What would Putin have been "intervening" in? Ukranian self-determination?

logicchains 3y ago
[flagged]
- mymac 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - objektif 3y ago
    I do not think he was trying to justify the war was he?
  - CapricornNoble 3y ago
    > This is naked Russian propaganda masquerading as enlightened discourse. OSCE via Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... Unless Reuters is "naked Russian propaganda" now, there was definitely an uptick in kinetic activity in the Donbas, with most of it falling on the Separatist side of the line of control.
    - mymac 3y ago
      Russia has given each and every excuse that you could possibly come up with in 2014 and again in 2022. If you're a defense industry consultant I'd expect you to be more than conversant with the run-up to the second episode of this war and not to swallow such things hook, line and sinker. Note that nowhere in that article does it say that the Ukrainian side did that. For all we know this was a provocation, as Russia is won't to do. Alternative explanations have been present many times and none of them have stuck. Also note that there was an endless build-up prior to the second phase of this invasion which had absolutely nothing to do with that particular incident even if it was done by the Ukrainian side, which I highly doubt given the fact that it was one of the pretexts used. Finally: in that region there have been many actions by either side and no matter what: the Ukrainians are well within their right to kick out an invader, the myth of the separatists has been debunked solidly, until the little green men showed up there was no meaningful separatist activity.