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I already see there is no point in continue this conversation. I notice your standards for US/EU intervention are very very high and basically nobody should ev

I already see there is no point in continue this conversation. I notice your standards for US/EU intervention are very very high and basically nobody should ever being killed. Why don't you apply the same reasoning to Gaddafi's regime and Syria/Russia/Al-Qaeda? You seem to have every problem existing in the Universe when the evil West does something ( and also a problem when it doesn't, also a problem that the West exists I suspect ), yet not a peep when these regimes torture and kill people by the thousands, or are you going to tell me that's just a fantasy? Or when they do it it's justify because it's the West's fault too, so those poor victims have no other choice than to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them? Btw, I'm not even "defending" the US/EU track record in Libya. I think they did a really bad half-assed job, but I also recognize the context of it all. Anyway, I've had it.

themgt 3y ago
Why don't you apply the same reasoning to Gaddafi's regime and Syria/Russia/Al-Qaeda? What reasoning? First of all I'm an American citizen, so I concern myself more with what my country does with my tax dollars than what other countries do, especially within their own borders or in situations that don't directly affect American citizens. I don't believe America's job is global law enforcement. It's like asking an American "why don't you apply the reasoning that President Trump is corrupt to President Ali Bongo of Niger? Why aren't you calling for President Ali Bongo's arrest? Double standard?" also a problem that the West exists I suspect It's fascinating that my criticism of the US/NATO bombing and invading and occupying other countries leads you to suspect I have a problem "that the West exists". In your conception perhaps "the West" would cease to exist as such if it were not the global hegemon? yet not a peep when these regimes torture and kill people by the thousands Saudi Arabia tortures and kills people by the thousands. If China or Russia invaded Saudi Arabia and attempted to turn it into a client state using the justification of Saudi misdeeds, would you support them? I suspect not, but we're back to "when the US/NATO does it it's good, when US/NATO adversaries do it it's bad" being the "rules-based order" many believe should exist.
- misja111 3y ago
  > but we're back to "when the US/NATO does it it's good, when US/NATO adversaries do it it's bad" You're talking about the hypothetical situation when China or Russia would invade a country to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. And you proceed to claim that when they would do it, the West would say "it's bad". There have been plenty of occasions in, say, the last 75 years where China or Russia have invaded some country. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but not one single time was it to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. Otoh there have been, and still are, plenty of regimes that are killing and torturing like that, and which receive the full support from China and Russia.
  - CapricornNoble 3y ago
    > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but not one single time was it to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. This is literally one of the arguments put forth by Putin for intervention in Ukraine. The most often-cited example I hear from Russians is the fire in Odessa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... And the government was resorting to airstrikes the same month: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-launches-air-strikes-at-eastern-gunmen/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-launches-air-strikes-a... Can you imagine if the US response to CHAZ/CHOP was to drop JDAMs on Seattle? Now one can counter-argue "not enough people were dying to justify foreign intervention", to which the obvious retort is "who gets to make that determination?"
- aaplok 3y ago
  Small correction. Bongo is (was) the ruler of Gabon, not Niger.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
boppo1 3y ago
> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?
- ericmay 3y ago
  We didn’t use to call it war, so you’re wrong about that. We used the term “intervention” to describe limited military action. Countries throughout history have conducted interventions as opposed to full-scale war. Russia’s assault on Ukraine isn’t an intervention and is instead a war and we know this because of the size and scale of the operation but also the intentions of the operation, which, are to take over the entire country of Ukraine.
  - objektif 3y ago
    Sounds like a bunch of wars we were engaged in the ME for no reason.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      Don't you mean interventions? ;-)
  - abfan1127 3y ago
    cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
- legutierr 3y ago
  If Lybian forces were on the verge of committing war crimes and killing thousands, then "intervention" would be an appropriate word to describe what the Western powers did. They "intervened" to prevent an imminent atrocity, if you believe them. And I am inclined to believe them, not because of what Western governments have said, but because the whole Arab Spring played out in real time on social media. I agree that what happened to Gaddafi himself was horrific. It would have been a much better thing if he had been arrested and brought before a tribunal. But he was killed by Libyans, who were angry about the Libyans that Gaddafi himself had killed. The contribution that Western Governments made to those events was to stop the killing of thousands of people who opposed the regime. Arguing against intervention is arguing in favor of what would have happened without intervention—which is, effectively, what we have seen in Syria. Now, was Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the verge of murdering tens of thousands? Were Ukranian forces gathered, ready to rain artillery shells down on a major Ukrainian city? If not, I don't think it would be appropriate to describe the Russian invasion as an "intervention". What would Putin have been "intervening" in? Ukranian self-determination?
CapricornNoble 3y ago
> but I also recognize the context of it all. The context is that Sarkozy didn't want Gaddafi muscling on the Franc's domination of Africa's economy. https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12659 https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12659 https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011 https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-q...
zen_1 3y ago
I wish your home is never fortunate enough to suffer such a US/EU "intervention"
- q1w2 3y ago
  Remember that in this global power model, everyone is either under US, EU, Russian, or Chinese influence (and maybe a couple smaller players). From those, I'd much rather be under the US or EU sphere of influence.
dang 3y ago
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I realize that other commenters have also been breaking the rules, but your post here stands out in that manner. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

themgt 3y ago

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to Gaddafi's regime and Syria/Russia/Al-Qaeda? What reasoning? First of all I'm an American citizen, so I concern myself more with what my country does with my tax dollars than what other countries do, especially within their own borders or in situations that don't directly affect American citizens. I don't believe America's job is global law enforcement. It's like asking an American "why don't you apply the reasoning that President Trump is corrupt to President Ali Bongo of Niger? Why aren't you calling for President Ali Bongo's arrest? Double standard?" also a problem that the West exists I suspect It's fascinating that my criticism of the US/NATO bombing and invading and occupying other countries leads you to suspect I have a problem "that the West exists". In your conception perhaps "the West" would cease to exist as such if it were not the global hegemon? yet not a peep when these regimes torture and kill people by the thousands Saudi Arabia tortures and kills people by the thousands. If China or Russia invaded Saudi Arabia and attempted to turn it into a client state using the justification of Saudi misdeeds, would you support them? I suspect not, but we're back to "when the US/NATO does it it's good, when US/NATO adversaries do it it's bad" being the "rules-based order" many believe should exist.

misja111 3y ago
> but we're back to "when the US/NATO does it it's good, when US/NATO adversaries do it it's bad" You're talking about the hypothetical situation when China or Russia would invade a country to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. And you proceed to claim that when they would do it, the West would say "it's bad". There have been plenty of occasions in, say, the last 75 years where China or Russia have invaded some country. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but not one single time was it to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. Otoh there have been, and still are, plenty of regimes that are killing and torturing like that, and which receive the full support from China and Russia.
- CapricornNoble 3y ago
  > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but not one single time was it to stop the regime from torturing and killing people by the thousands. This is literally one of the arguments put forth by Putin for intervention in Ukraine. The most often-cited example I hear from Russians is the fire in Odessa: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... And the government was resorting to airstrikes the same month: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-launches-air-strikes-at-eastern-gunmen/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-launches-air-strikes-a... Can you imagine if the US response to CHAZ/CHOP was to drop JDAMs on Seattle? Now one can counter-argue "not enough people were dying to justify foreign intervention", to which the obvious retort is "who gets to make that determination?"
aaplok 3y ago
Small correction. Bongo is (was) the ruler of Gabon, not Niger.
dang 3y ago
Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

boppo1 3y ago

> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?

ericmay 3y ago
We didn’t use to call it war, so you’re wrong about that. We used the term “intervention” to describe limited military action. Countries throughout history have conducted interventions as opposed to full-scale war. Russia’s assault on Ukraine isn’t an intervention and is instead a war and we know this because of the size and scale of the operation but also the intentions of the operation, which, are to take over the entire country of Ukraine.
- objektif 3y ago
  Sounds like a bunch of wars we were engaged in the ME for no reason.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Don't you mean interventions? ;-)
- abfan1127 3y ago
  cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
legutierr 3y ago
If Lybian forces were on the verge of committing war crimes and killing thousands, then "intervention" would be an appropriate word to describe what the Western powers did. They "intervened" to prevent an imminent atrocity, if you believe them. And I am inclined to believe them, not because of what Western governments have said, but because the whole Arab Spring played out in real time on social media. I agree that what happened to Gaddafi himself was horrific. It would have been a much better thing if he had been arrested and brought before a tribunal. But he was killed by Libyans, who were angry about the Libyans that Gaddafi himself had killed. The contribution that Western Governments made to those events was to stop the killing of thousands of people who opposed the regime. Arguing against intervention is arguing in favor of what would have happened without intervention—which is, effectively, what we have seen in Syria. Now, was Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the verge of murdering tens of thousands? Were Ukranian forces gathered, ready to rain artillery shells down on a major Ukrainian city? If not, I don't think it would be appropriate to describe the Russian invasion as an "intervention". What would Putin have been "intervening" in? Ukranian self-determination?

CapricornNoble 3y ago

> but I also recognize the context of it all. The context is that Sarkozy didn't want Gaddafi muscling on the Franc's domination of Africa's economy. https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12659 https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12659 https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011 https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-q...

zen_1 3y ago

I wish your home is never fortunate enough to suffer such a US/EU "intervention"

q1w2 3y ago
Remember that in this global power model, everyone is either under US, EU, Russian, or Chinese influence (and maybe a couple smaller players). From those, I'd much rather be under the US or EU sphere of influence.

dang 3y ago

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. I realize that other commenters have also been breaking the rules, but your post here stands out in that manner. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.