8 ms·

People reporting on missing cats and such. The solution is simple: keep the indoors. That is the responsible thing to do. Cats are highly destructive to native

by NL807 3y ago

People reporting on missing cats and such. The solution is simple: keep the indoors. That is the responsible thing to do. Cats are highly destructive to native fauna, they can get injured, die, breed, pick up parasites, or catch communicable diseases that may be incurable. Keep them indoors.

ismayilzadan 3y ago
Why is this getting downvoted? Indoor cats always have a longer lifespan than outdoors. It is the right thing to keep cats indoors but provide plenty of indoor play & stimulation to keep them active.
- ajb 3y ago
  It's getting downvoted because this varies hugely by location. In the UK, the life expectancy is not that different, there are no large predators, so the consensus of cat owners is that cats life richer lives if let out. If you live in the US your cat could be eaten by a mountain lion or coyote.
  - FridayNightTV 3y ago
    > In the UK, the life expectancy is not that different, there are no large predators No, but there is traffic and plenty of people who take objection to cats fouling their gardens and will happily leave out a saucer of antifreeze. If you live in an urban area, the kindest thing to do is keep you cat indoors.
    - IneffablePigeon 3y ago
      This is pretty much the same attitude which leads to kids being wrapped in cotton wool, ferried everywhere in giant SUVs and never let outside to play. I find it a bit sad.
      - FridayNightTV 3y ago
        Not really. We teach children how to cross the road and children don't generally take a dump in the neighbours flower beds.
      - nerb 3y ago
        dude, it isn't a giant SUV divers that are advocating for indoor cats. they are the same people that hold onto the whimsy that "cats a natural and belong outdoors! :)"
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - pazimzadeh 3y ago
    The UK is one of the only places I've seen someone walking their cat without a leash
- elefanten 3y ago
  It’s not as “simple” as gp suggests, nor is it “the right thing”. We really don’t know what psychological and qol differences there are between the two… we’ve never been able to ask the cats. There are trade-offs, life expectancy being only one dimension of it. And in both cases (like the play you mention) there are mitigations to the downsides. Source: I’ve had both indoor and outdoor cats, including cats that transitioned to outdoor after being raised indoor. Lost one outdoor cat tragically in middle of his lifespan. But his equally-outdoor brother lived to 19, and all the outdoor cats hands down seemed happier on average (less lethargic, less neurotic, less obsessive, less overeating).
stephenr 3y ago
You're being downvoted, I don't think people realise quite the difference it can make. One source suggests anywhere from 2x to 10x increase in life expectancy.
- almost 3y ago
  So you're saying my cat could have lived up to 190 years if she was kept inside? Huge if true!
  - BitsOfBeard 3y ago
    I keep my cat in a locked closet, and she is coming up on 267 years, still going strong! I used to hear her playing in there, but nowadays she's much more quiet.
    - spacecadet 3y ago
      Wow you both are bigger trolls and worse at math than me!
  - stephenr 3y ago
    Imagine my surprise that you don't understand what an average is.
    - almost 3y ago
      Is that a breed of cat?
plugin-baby 3y ago
Cats are native fauna in some places. If it’s not suitable for a cat to go outdoors where you live, maybe just don’t get a cat in the first place. Same for dogs, children, horses etc.
- Extasia785 3y ago
  While cats are native in some places, evolutionary mechanisms stop working when a predator has an unlimited supply of food supplied by humans. The problem of cats nowadays isn't their existence, but that the amount of cats per square meter is more than the ecosystem can support. Usually this would easily balance out by the predator dying. But with humans feeding cats, they can rampage the ecosystem until it's destroyed without checks and balances. Feeding a predator and letting it outside is never suitable.
- ivraatiems 3y ago
  ...what places? Cats (and dogs, and horses) are domesticated animals. They aren't "native" anywhere the same way a wild species is, they were bred by humans.
  - JamesMcMinn 3y ago
    The UK, Scotland in particular, as a starter for 10. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_wildcat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_wildcat
    - FridayNightTV 3y ago
      Amusingly, Scottish Wildcats are rare, going extinct because they are interbreeding with feral domestic cats. Your very post (and Wikipedia link) undermines the argument you are tying to make.
      - JamesMcMinn 3y ago
        What point do you think I am trying to make, exactly? Native fauna is defined as animals which historically have naturally occurred in the local area [1], and wild cats are by definition native fauna in Scotland, and across much of Europe. You are letting your very obvious personal bias determine your interpretation of what is an objective fact. [1] https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/native-fauna#:~:text=Native%20fauna%20means%20native%20animals,occurred%20in%20the%20local%20area https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/native-fauna#:~:text=N....
sannee 3y ago
The lack of birds in the small town where my parents live, and dozens of semi-feral cats roam, is always rather unsettling. Meanwhile the parks in a city two orders of magnitude larger are bustling with activity, since the life expectancy of an outdoor cat here is close to zero.
steveBK123 3y ago
Agreed as a cat person people should keep their cats indoors. It's better for the cat & better for the environment. Every outdoor childhood cat I had got hit by a car or ran away. None lived much past 5. My parents started to keep cats indoors and they lived 10..15+ years. That said, this product looks like it can help people who lose their indoor cats, which happens. I recently helped rescue a neighbors cat who snuck out and stayed outside for 2 full months.
- Tade0 3y ago
  Weird how nobody mentions that you can actually walk your cat - it's very different from walking a dog, but completely doable. Over time you can get rid of the leash and just walk side by side. My cat was 10 when we moved to a ground floor apartment, so we couldn't realistically prevent him from escaping, so we started walking him. He lived over 16 years, the last two of which he would only go outside to lay in the bushes.
- pazimzadeh 3y ago
  Do you think maybe by making sure that generations of cats never experience the outdoors, perhaps you are breeding them to not know how to deal with the outdoors whenever they do get out?
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    I prefer my cat not to get hit by a car. Deer, possums, raccoons, and other wildlife who live outdoors seem incapable of learning how to avoid it, so it's unclear my cat will either. Further as mentioned in my post, my parents essentially ran your experiment already with the result being every male cat we had dying in under 5 years due to being hit by cars. So no, I don't think it's a great idea to let your cat outdoors in most reasonably populated & dense areas of the US.
    - pazimzadeh 3y ago
      > Deer, possums, raccoons, and other wildlife who live outdoors seem incapable of learning how to avoid it, so it's unclear my cat will either. Or, you only notice the ones which have been killed. Otherwise, deer, possum and raccoon populations should decrease pretty fast. And of feral cats of course. > Further as mentioned in my post, my parents essentially ran your experiment already with the result being every male cat we had dying in under 5 years due to being hit by cars. I'm sorry to hear that, but I am curious why it was only the male cats. Perhaps they are less skittish? What happened to the female cats? > So no, I don't think it's a great idea to let your cat outdoors in most reasonably populated & dense areas of the US. Alright, but I would hope you can at least agree that keeping cats indoors all the time is not preparing them for the outdoors, in the cases when they do slip out.
Namari 3y ago
What don't you do the same, stay indoor, humans too are highly destructive to fauna, they can get injured, die, breed, pick up parasites, or catch communicable diseases that may be incurable. All animals should be free, if you can't provide freedom to your animals then you should not have any.
- ivraatiems 3y ago
  I genuinely don't understand why you feel the same rules ought to apply to humans and non-sapient animals, especially animals introduced into an environment by humans. What about the fact that animals introduced to an environment by humans in the name of "freedom" cause disproportionate harm to other animals? Whose freedom wins?
  - Namari 3y ago
    Just don't get a cat?
    - ivraatiems 3y ago
      That's a pretty big "just" for someone who grew up loving cats. I'm sure it seems easy to you to not have animal companions, but plenty of rational people place a lot more value on it than you do. Your point of view is based on faulty assumptions about the importance of that experience.
      - Namari 3y ago
        It's a choice you have to make. It's the same as cigarets, you know it's toxic to you and others but still you want it regardless. PS: I love cats and always had one until few years back but I don't want to have one to force him to stay indoor, as long as I don't have a place for it to go out I won't get any.
- NL807 3y ago
  You are making an obtuse argument. You do realise pets are introduced species in many parts of the world, and actually end up being significant pests, right? Predatory pets like cats are especially destructive in most ecosystems, many small native species are vulnerable and end up being endangered, because they have not evolved a defence strategy against them. Places like Australia has a huge problem because of it. Again, keep your cat indoors. Otherwise, you're part of the problem.
dpeckett 3y ago
Or even better provide them a large outdoor catio / enclosure. Opportunity to play and access to a stimulating environment are so valuable for cat well-being. In a lot of ways cat's are still in the early phases of domestication and the concept of keeping them indoors only is rather new.
mft_ 3y ago
Even indoor cats can escape.
WHYLEE1991 3y ago
What if someone breaks into my house or I leave the door open for slightly too long? are both of these concepts THAT alien to you? lol.
- NL807 3y ago
  Whataboutism doesn't change the fact feral cats, or domestic cats going feral are significant pests in many parts of the world. My argument is about advocating responsible pet ownership of small predators that can easily stray and become an environmental problem.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by NL807 3y ago

ismayilzadan 3y ago

Why is this getting downvoted? Indoor cats always have a longer lifespan than outdoors. It is the right thing to keep cats indoors but provide plenty of indoor play & stimulation to keep them active.

ajb 3y ago
It's getting downvoted because this varies hugely by location. In the UK, the life expectancy is not that different, there are no large predators, so the consensus of cat owners is that cats life richer lives if let out. If you live in the US your cat could be eaten by a mountain lion or coyote.
- FridayNightTV 3y ago
  > In the UK, the life expectancy is not that different, there are no large predators No, but there is traffic and plenty of people who take objection to cats fouling their gardens and will happily leave out a saucer of antifreeze. If you live in an urban area, the kindest thing to do is keep you cat indoors.
  - IneffablePigeon 3y ago
    This is pretty much the same attitude which leads to kids being wrapped in cotton wool, ferried everywhere in giant SUVs and never let outside to play. I find it a bit sad.
    - FridayNightTV 3y ago
      Not really. We teach children how to cross the road and children don't generally take a dump in the neighbours flower beds.
    - nerb 3y ago
      dude, it isn't a giant SUV divers that are advocating for indoor cats. they are the same people that hold onto the whimsy that "cats a natural and belong outdoors! :)"
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- pazimzadeh 3y ago
  The UK is one of the only places I've seen someone walking their cat without a leash
elefanten 3y ago
It’s not as “simple” as gp suggests, nor is it “the right thing”. We really don’t know what psychological and qol differences there are between the two… we’ve never been able to ask the cats. There are trade-offs, life expectancy being only one dimension of it. And in both cases (like the play you mention) there are mitigations to the downsides. Source: I’ve had both indoor and outdoor cats, including cats that transitioned to outdoor after being raised indoor. Lost one outdoor cat tragically in middle of his lifespan. But his equally-outdoor brother lived to 19, and all the outdoor cats hands down seemed happier on average (less lethargic, less neurotic, less obsessive, less overeating).

stephenr 3y ago

You're being downvoted, I don't think people realise quite the difference it can make. One source suggests anywhere from 2x to 10x increase in life expectancy.

almost 3y ago
So you're saying my cat could have lived up to 190 years if she was kept inside? Huge if true!
- BitsOfBeard 3y ago
  I keep my cat in a locked closet, and she is coming up on 267 years, still going strong! I used to hear her playing in there, but nowadays she's much more quiet.
  - spacecadet 3y ago
    Wow you both are bigger trolls and worse at math than me!
- stephenr 3y ago
  Imagine my surprise that you don't understand what an average is.
  - almost 3y ago
    Is that a breed of cat?

plugin-baby 3y ago

Cats are native fauna in some places. If it’s not suitable for a cat to go outdoors where you live, maybe just don’t get a cat in the first place. Same for dogs, children, horses etc.

Extasia785 3y ago
While cats are native in some places, evolutionary mechanisms stop working when a predator has an unlimited supply of food supplied by humans. The problem of cats nowadays isn't their existence, but that the amount of cats per square meter is more than the ecosystem can support. Usually this would easily balance out by the predator dying. But with humans feeding cats, they can rampage the ecosystem until it's destroyed without checks and balances. Feeding a predator and letting it outside is never suitable.
ivraatiems 3y ago
...what places? Cats (and dogs, and horses) are domesticated animals. They aren't "native" anywhere the same way a wild species is, they were bred by humans.
- JamesMcMinn 3y ago
  The UK, Scotland in particular, as a starter for 10. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_wildcat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_wildcat
  - FridayNightTV 3y ago
    Amusingly, Scottish Wildcats are rare, going extinct because they are interbreeding with feral domestic cats. Your very post (and Wikipedia link) undermines the argument you are tying to make.
    - JamesMcMinn 3y ago
      What point do you think I am trying to make, exactly? Native fauna is defined as animals which historically have naturally occurred in the local area [1], and wild cats are by definition native fauna in Scotland, and across much of Europe. You are letting your very obvious personal bias determine your interpretation of what is an objective fact. [1] https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/native-fauna#:~:text=Native%20fauna%20means%20native%20animals,occurred%20in%20the%20local%20area https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/native-fauna#:~:text=N....

sannee 3y ago

The lack of birds in the small town where my parents live, and dozens of semi-feral cats roam, is always rather unsettling. Meanwhile the parks in a city two orders of magnitude larger are bustling with activity, since the life expectancy of an outdoor cat here is close to zero.

steveBK123 3y ago

Agreed as a cat person people should keep their cats indoors. It's better for the cat & better for the environment. Every outdoor childhood cat I had got hit by a car or ran away. None lived much past 5. My parents started to keep cats indoors and they lived 10..15+ years. That said, this product looks like it can help people who lose their indoor cats, which happens. I recently helped rescue a neighbors cat who snuck out and stayed outside for 2 full months.

Tade0 3y ago
Weird how nobody mentions that you can actually walk your cat - it's very different from walking a dog, but completely doable. Over time you can get rid of the leash and just walk side by side. My cat was 10 when we moved to a ground floor apartment, so we couldn't realistically prevent him from escaping, so we started walking him. He lived over 16 years, the last two of which he would only go outside to lay in the bushes.
pazimzadeh 3y ago
Do you think maybe by making sure that generations of cats never experience the outdoors, perhaps you are breeding them to not know how to deal with the outdoors whenever they do get out?
- steveBK123 3y ago
  I prefer my cat not to get hit by a car. Deer, possums, raccoons, and other wildlife who live outdoors seem incapable of learning how to avoid it, so it's unclear my cat will either. Further as mentioned in my post, my parents essentially ran your experiment already with the result being every male cat we had dying in under 5 years due to being hit by cars. So no, I don't think it's a great idea to let your cat outdoors in most reasonably populated & dense areas of the US.
  - pazimzadeh 3y ago
    > Deer, possums, raccoons, and other wildlife who live outdoors seem incapable of learning how to avoid it, so it's unclear my cat will either. Or, you only notice the ones which have been killed. Otherwise, deer, possum and raccoon populations should decrease pretty fast. And of feral cats of course. > Further as mentioned in my post, my parents essentially ran your experiment already with the result being every male cat we had dying in under 5 years due to being hit by cars. I'm sorry to hear that, but I am curious why it was only the male cats. Perhaps they are less skittish? What happened to the female cats? > So no, I don't think it's a great idea to let your cat outdoors in most reasonably populated & dense areas of the US. Alright, but I would hope you can at least agree that keeping cats indoors all the time is not preparing them for the outdoors, in the cases when they do slip out.

Namari 3y ago

What don't you do the same, stay indoor, humans too are highly destructive to fauna, they can get injured, die, breed, pick up parasites, or catch communicable diseases that may be incurable. All animals should be free, if you can't provide freedom to your animals then you should not have any.

ivraatiems 3y ago
I genuinely don't understand why you feel the same rules ought to apply to humans and non-sapient animals, especially animals introduced into an environment by humans. What about the fact that animals introduced to an environment by humans in the name of "freedom" cause disproportionate harm to other animals? Whose freedom wins?
- Namari 3y ago
  Just don't get a cat?
  - ivraatiems 3y ago
    That's a pretty big "just" for someone who grew up loving cats. I'm sure it seems easy to you to not have animal companions, but plenty of rational people place a lot more value on it than you do. Your point of view is based on faulty assumptions about the importance of that experience.
    - Namari 3y ago
      It's a choice you have to make. It's the same as cigarets, you know it's toxic to you and others but still you want it regardless. PS: I love cats and always had one until few years back but I don't want to have one to force him to stay indoor, as long as I don't have a place for it to go out I won't get any.
NL807 3y ago
You are making an obtuse argument. You do realise pets are introduced species in many parts of the world, and actually end up being significant pests, right? Predatory pets like cats are especially destructive in most ecosystems, many small native species are vulnerable and end up being endangered, because they have not evolved a defence strategy against them. Places like Australia has a huge problem because of it. Again, keep your cat indoors. Otherwise, you're part of the problem.

dpeckett 3y ago

Or even better provide them a large outdoor catio / enclosure. Opportunity to play and access to a stimulating environment are so valuable for cat well-being. In a lot of ways cat's are still in the early phases of domestication and the concept of keeping them indoors only is rather new.

mft_ 3y ago

Even indoor cats can escape.

WHYLEE1991 3y ago

What if someone breaks into my house or I leave the door open for slightly too long? are both of these concepts THAT alien to you? lol.

NL807 3y ago
Whataboutism doesn't change the fact feral cats, or domestic cats going feral are significant pests in many parts of the world. My argument is about advocating responsible pet ownership of small predators that can easily stray and become an environmental problem.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]