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1000 km battery, 10 minute charge? I'm suspicious for many reasons. If they can't build their prime hybrids — or even supply gas Siennas in Canada — I'm not v

by jbm 3y ago

1000 km battery, 10 minute charge? I'm suspicious for many reasons. If they can't build their prime hybrids — or even supply gas Siennas in Canada — I'm not very confident about their manufacturing in the mid-term. I hope I'm wrong.

jbay808 3y ago
It reminds me of the old story about the inventor in the late 1890s, who claimed to have invented a car that could cross the United States running on just a gallon of water. After failing to deliver a tangible product for years, investors pushed him to either produce his vehicle or return their money. The inventor refused, saying that he'd now come up with an even better version that could cross the United States on just a single thimble of water, and it would be beneath his professional pride to release an inferior product, so he had no choice but to continue his research.
eulgro 3y ago
For a 150 kWh battery, 10 minute charge to go from 10% to 80% SoC means charging at 600 kW or so. It would be pretty insane.
- PaulKeeble 3y ago
  Not feasible on even 240 Volt AC at all, would have to be high voltage all the way to the charger as the cabling is unworkable. Its completely impractical otherwise and its going to require big changes to the grid.
  - jtc331 3y ago
    DC fast chargers are already 400V or 800V, so we’ve long since crossed the limits of AC charging at home.
    - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
      Most of Europe is connected to 400V 3-phase grid. When limited at a pretty common 40A, this delivers up to 16kW. Tesla Superchargers routinely charge at 150kW. I'd say they are well above 800V.
  - tzs 3y ago
    Presumably that would be at charging stations, not at home. Those would be located in commercial areas where they could get the kind of power feed that medium to large buildings get, which is typically 3 phase 13800 V, and can be thousands of kW.
  - tuatoru 3y ago
    Yeah, what are your distribution voltages in the States, 13 kV maybe? That'd only be about 50 amps if so. 10mm diameter cables would be OK. Workable with a battery swap station next to a substation.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- IanCal 3y ago
  It is but it's not orders of magnitude away from current chargers. The fastest I know of are 350kW currently.
bestham 3y ago
Toyota is one of the top innovators in the world when it comes to manufacturing. The reason Tesla is able to produce millions of Model 3 is partly because they are applying the lessons learned from the Toyota production system (TPS). Toyota have a lot of experience of electrification, they just have not produced a lot of vehicles with a charging plug. Toyota will deliver EVs that good enough to compete with all other manufacturers and their EVs will come with the hallmark Toyota reliability. The reason that their current EVs have so low range is pure conservatism from their side. The batteries are over provisioned and the current iterations of EVs are more of a Prime without the gas engine than a pure EV platform. They are the tortoise. Be wary of betting against them.
- acdha 3y ago
  Nobody is saying they don’t have a good history or tons of resources but company leadership is not a constant. They blew a multi-decade lead and do not appear to be reacting well enough to catch up – likely because their senior people need to admit that their hydrogen gamble failed, which is hard enough even when it doesn’t involve multi-billion dollar write-offs. This is especially so because hydrogen worked out exactly how basically everyone else predicted it would when they made that bet, so they can’t claim nobody could have foreseen this outcome.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    This is BEV propaganda. Toyota's hydrogen bet has yet to be even tested. There is a very good chance that batteries get disrupted by hydrogen. In that scenario, almost everyone is decades behind Toyota.
    - wlesieutre 3y ago
      Tesla wanted BEVs to happen, so they built their own nationwide charging network. Toyota wants hydrogen vehicles to happen, so they've sat around hoping someone else solves the refueling network problem for them. So far this strategy hasn't worked out. Are there any signs of that changing?

by jbm 3y ago

jbay808 3y ago

It reminds me of the old story about the inventor in the late 1890s, who claimed to have invented a car that could cross the United States running on just a gallon of water. After failing to deliver a tangible product for years, investors pushed him to either produce his vehicle or return their money. The inventor refused, saying that he'd now come up with an even better version that could cross the United States on just a single thimble of water, and it would be beneath his professional pride to release an inferior product, so he had no choice but to continue his research.

eulgro 3y ago

For a 150 kWh battery, 10 minute charge to go from 10% to 80% SoC means charging at 600 kW or so. It would be pretty insane.

PaulKeeble 3y ago
Not feasible on even 240 Volt AC at all, would have to be high voltage all the way to the charger as the cabling is unworkable. Its completely impractical otherwise and its going to require big changes to the grid.
- jtc331 3y ago
  DC fast chargers are already 400V or 800V, so we’ve long since crossed the limits of AC charging at home.
  - sam_lowry_ 3y ago
    Most of Europe is connected to 400V 3-phase grid. When limited at a pretty common 40A, this delivers up to 16kW. Tesla Superchargers routinely charge at 150kW. I'd say they are well above 800V.
- tzs 3y ago
  Presumably that would be at charging stations, not at home. Those would be located in commercial areas where they could get the kind of power feed that medium to large buildings get, which is typically 3 phase 13800 V, and can be thousands of kW.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  Yeah, what are your distribution voltages in the States, 13 kV maybe? That'd only be about 50 amps if so. 10mm diameter cables would be OK. Workable with a battery swap station next to a substation.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
IanCal 3y ago
It is but it's not orders of magnitude away from current chargers. The fastest I know of are 350kW currently.

bestham 3y ago

Toyota is one of the top innovators in the world when it comes to manufacturing. The reason Tesla is able to produce millions of Model 3 is partly because they are applying the lessons learned from the Toyota production system (TPS). Toyota have a lot of experience of electrification, they just have not produced a lot of vehicles with a charging plug. Toyota will deliver EVs that good enough to compete with all other manufacturers and their EVs will come with the hallmark Toyota reliability. The reason that their current EVs have so low range is pure conservatism from their side. The batteries are over provisioned and the current iterations of EVs are more of a Prime without the gas engine than a pure EV platform. They are the tortoise. Be wary of betting against them.

acdha 3y ago
Nobody is saying they don’t have a good history or tons of resources but company leadership is not a constant. They blew a multi-decade lead and do not appear to be reacting well enough to catch up – likely because their senior people need to admit that their hydrogen gamble failed, which is hard enough even when it doesn’t involve multi-billion dollar write-offs. This is especially so because hydrogen worked out exactly how basically everyone else predicted it would when they made that bet, so they can’t claim nobody could have foreseen this outcome.
- _hypx 3y ago
  This is BEV propaganda. Toyota's hydrogen bet has yet to be even tested. There is a very good chance that batteries get disrupted by hydrogen. In that scenario, almost everyone is decades behind Toyota.
  - wlesieutre 3y ago
    Tesla wanted BEVs to happen, so they built their own nationwide charging network. Toyota wants hydrogen vehicles to happen, so they've sat around hoping someone else solves the refueling network problem for them. So far this strategy hasn't worked out. Are there any signs of that changing?