7 ms·

My 1993 Jeep Wrangler is so simple that I myself can do almost all repairs myself. The only work it ever needed was a new transmission after living in SF for t

by q1w2 3y ago

My 1993 Jeep Wrangler is so simple that I myself can do almost all repairs myself. The only work it ever needed was a new transmission after living in SF for too long. I see my friends taking their new modern cars into the shop regularly. My Jeep has been running smoothly for literally more than 30 YEARS! All the high-tech features like music/podcasts, gps navigation, etc... that's my phone stuck to the dash. It is a simple robust vehicle. KISS

gumby 3y ago
C'mon, get real. How can you drive a vehicle without a huge screen blocking your view? That you have to take your eyes off the road to actually read, or to change the volume?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > How can you drive a vehicle without a huge screen blocking your view? Not all modern cars are designed like Teslas. Physical controls and touchscreens that don't block your view (and even having indicators that are in a simple set of heads-up indicators achieved by leveraging reflection and the windshield angle) are not unheard of on new cars.
forgetfreeman 3y ago
I've got a 62 fairlane that's easier to work on than my lawnmower so I hear what you're saying. Some of the complexity under a modern hood is necessary to hit fuel efficiency and emissions requirements, but the rest of it is unnecessary bullshit. I've kept up with new car developments mostly due to annual trips that involve renting a car for a week. On my last trip I got handed a new forrester and between the center console display, blinky shit on the dash and rearviews, and the lane assist feature consistently freaking out whenever it encountered a seam in the pavement I've never had a harder time keeping focus and control over the vehicle I was driving. First thing I did the morning after I picked the car up was spend 45 minutes grovelling through every settings menu the car had looking for shit I could turn off.
- q1w2 3y ago
  Don't be so quick to turn off those lane and hazard alerts - they are a major contributor to reduced accident frequency. You get used to the buzz, and they also warn you when someone else is making a mistake - not only you.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    Fuck that. I have ADD and they distract from what I actually need to be paying attention to: the view out the front of the car, the mirrors, and my blind spots. I rode a liter bike as my sole mode of transportation for years. Trust me when I say I don't need assistance maintaining situational awareness. I've been in exactly 1 at-fault accident in 30 years of driving. Cause: got distracted by center console bullshit.
SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
The only real caveat is that if you and your friend get in a head-on collision on the highway one of you is probably going to come out of it a lot better.
- throw1234651234 3y ago
  This is a critical aspect most mechanically-inclined people choose to ignore. They also like to pretend that a generator, water pump, belt tensioner, etc (just picked accessory belt items for an example) are as reliable as they were 200k ago. And they fail to consider the cost of time lost due to the car stopping at the side of the road or not starting. When your car loses power and consequently loses power steering in the middle of the road, it's not very fun. Yes, new car owners probably do overpay for maintenance, but it's likely not that key maintenance and could be avoided. Yes, new engine bays are more cramped and there is more automation. I am against connected cars, but I hate when people go way overboard on the "used cars are the best by far" argument just because they know the order of the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing and fork.
  - linuxftw 3y ago
    I just watched a youtube video of a brand new F150 that needed tail light replacements. Due to all the electronics (lidar IIRC), replacing both was around $5600. And, it prevented the truck from even starting. Just for tail lights. That's pretty much what you can get an entire engine installed for on an older vehicle. Parts for new vehicles are also very hard to obtain right now. Much easier to get parts for 15+ year old (domestic) vehicle.
    - throw1234651234 3y ago
      These are, for the most part, nitpicked exceptions of expensive models or expensive optional upgrades. Get a new Civic or GR86 (or even Supra / V8 Mustang) and you won't have any of this. Yes, you can't turn off nannies on the Integra fully for example, but it's still a fuse away.
    - 3y ago
JohnFen 3y ago
Yep. For my part, I simply cannot imagine buying a relatively modern car for a whole bunch of reasons, including this. I don't want a smartphone on wheels. I want a car.
tfandango 3y ago
That's awesome! I just lost my old 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee when it decided to blow its engine at 107K miles. I'm told it had something to do with the variable valve timing system they put in, then I found out that this is not an uncommon problem such that some people pay 1000s of dollars to remove this feature from their engine. Replacing the engine would have cost me 14k. I had no idea, but I long for a car that isn't essentially disposable after 10 years. I really wish they made a car like that these days.
mdp2021 3y ago
Europe is in an effort to forbid those vehicles circulation. New cars are unwantable, old cars are progressively banned.
dragonwriter 3y ago
That was my general opinion on 1990s cars in the 1990s when my car was a 1972 VW beetle. I had the shop manual, and most things that didn't need a lift for I could do myself. Now I’ve got a full-time job, own a house, and have a spouse and children and even if I could have something as simple to work on as a ’72 Beetle, I wouldn't want to spend my time doing the work on it. And I like modern features like lane assist and radar cruise control and blindspot sensors that you can't get via a phone (and I prefer integrating a phone via Android Auto rather than using the actual phone for the UI rather than just the brains of the functions it does power.) Yeah, modern cars or more expensive than an old car, and, yes, it costs more cash to pay someone to maintain it than to maintain an older car yourself, but cash costs aren't the only costs, opportunity costs are a thing.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  And then there is security aspect. Crash safety was not a priority back then, crumple zones, airbags etc. were often simply not there yet or in very basic form. Yeah all looks fine when looking just at the financial numbers but once you are in serious crash and will see yourself crippled or kids dying, that penny saving may not look that good idea. There is vast ocean of cars between hyper modern mess of interconnected unmaintainability and these unsafe old metal bricks. They may not be the best solution in 20 years, but right now they are great.
- beej71 3y ago
  The main issue occurs when nobody can fix the car themselves. Then you are forced to go to the stealership for repairs and you pay over a barrel. It won't just cost more; it'll cost bank. So even if you don't want to repair the car, you most definitely want a car that you could repair.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
nullwarp 3y ago
I have a 1995 F-350 Power Stroke that I will probably be buried in. There is very little in that truck I can't fix or change. Slightly newer but also have a basic 2012 F-150 5.0 that is probably the easiest thing I've ever owned to work on that i daily drive. Having worked on some of the newer Ecoboost's so many damn tubes and wiring everywhere.
yowlingcat 3y ago
Are there any new cars that buck this trend? I've been buying used 00s vehicles for a while but a day will come when I won't be able to use that approach to buy simplicity with reliability and cost effectiveness.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
karaterobot 3y ago
I actually had the following (mental) debate about a decade ago: > Given that we can see that cars are going to send more and more data about me to manufacturers, and that this will get worse with every new generation of car that comes out, I should only buy used cars from the 90s that don't do this. On the other hand, eventually cars from this era will become too old to be practical, even with maintenance and repair. This may be in twenty years, or fifty years, but eventually I'll no longer be able to keep a 1996 Toyota pickup on the road. At that point, I will have to buy a newer vehicle. At that point, I'll either buy a brand new vehicle, and I will probably freak out and panic at the amount of garbage they've packed into it by then. Or, I could buy a succession of newer used vehicles, each more packed with electronic garbage than the last one, and I will have merely delayed the encroachment on my privacy and driving experience by a couple decades, not prevented it. So, really, it's going to happen one way or the other, and maybe it's better to just be the frog who is slowly boiled rather than have it happen all at once. I guess I'll just buy newer cars as needed, like everybody else, and just be slightly less happy about it each time. This is not a commentary on your decision, this is just a glimpse into my (tortured, possibly idiotic) thought process.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  I'm in a similar position but considering a different exit strategy: EV conversion. Still cheaper than a new car and since it isn't OEM there's no digital surveillance suite.
pengaru 3y ago
The 90s were the inflection point where "tech" and necessity intersected for many brands. We finally got mature and minimalist EFI+emissions controls, cars with vacuum lines numbering in the single digits, delivering relatively great all-round performance. Once you start seeing drive-by-wire / brake-by-wire / "on-star" systems appearing it's pretty much all downhill. They just couldn't leave well enough alone. What we needed was automation for carburetors mostly to run the catalytic convertors without self-destructing. Once we got that it's mostly solutions looking for problems (and revenue streams). What I want from EVs is an electrified version of that 90s-era simplicity with the modicum of necessary automation (in EVs that's probably all thermal/(dis)charge rate management and battery balancing). Just replace the ICE/ECU/tank with a motor+ESC+battery and leave out the touchscreens and driver deprecation+surveillance trash. I feel like there must be a business opportunity to produce EVs in this vein. What's the affordable Driver's Car EV brand? Are we all just waiting for Mazda to deliver an EV Miata? I can't be alone here.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
It's straightforward to do all the regular maintenance on an EV yourself, mostly because there is so much less of it to do. And the core drivetrain is extremely simple and robust. But like every other vehicle we've had in our pothole ridden city, the weakness is the suspension.

by q1w2 3y ago

gumby 3y ago

C'mon, get real. How can you drive a vehicle without a huge screen blocking your view? That you have to take your eyes off the road to actually read, or to change the volume?

dragonwriter 3y ago
> How can you drive a vehicle without a huge screen blocking your view? Not all modern cars are designed like Teslas. Physical controls and touchscreens that don't block your view (and even having indicators that are in a simple set of heads-up indicators achieved by leveraging reflection and the windshield angle) are not unheard of on new cars.

forgetfreeman 3y ago

I've got a 62 fairlane that's easier to work on than my lawnmower so I hear what you're saying. Some of the complexity under a modern hood is necessary to hit fuel efficiency and emissions requirements, but the rest of it is unnecessary bullshit. I've kept up with new car developments mostly due to annual trips that involve renting a car for a week. On my last trip I got handed a new forrester and between the center console display, blinky shit on the dash and rearviews, and the lane assist feature consistently freaking out whenever it encountered a seam in the pavement I've never had a harder time keeping focus and control over the vehicle I was driving. First thing I did the morning after I picked the car up was spend 45 minutes grovelling through every settings menu the car had looking for shit I could turn off.

q1w2 3y ago
Don't be so quick to turn off those lane and hazard alerts - they are a major contributor to reduced accident frequency. You get used to the buzz, and they also warn you when someone else is making a mistake - not only you.
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  Fuck that. I have ADD and they distract from what I actually need to be paying attention to: the view out the front of the car, the mirrors, and my blind spots. I rode a liter bike as my sole mode of transportation for years. Trust me when I say I don't need assistance maintaining situational awareness. I've been in exactly 1 at-fault accident in 30 years of driving. Cause: got distracted by center console bullshit.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

The only real caveat is that if you and your friend get in a head-on collision on the highway one of you is probably going to come out of it a lot better.

throw1234651234 3y ago
This is a critical aspect most mechanically-inclined people choose to ignore. They also like to pretend that a generator, water pump, belt tensioner, etc (just picked accessory belt items for an example) are as reliable as they were 200k ago. And they fail to consider the cost of time lost due to the car stopping at the side of the road or not starting. When your car loses power and consequently loses power steering in the middle of the road, it's not very fun. Yes, new car owners probably do overpay for maintenance, but it's likely not that key maintenance and could be avoided. Yes, new engine bays are more cramped and there is more automation. I am against connected cars, but I hate when people go way overboard on the "used cars are the best by far" argument just because they know the order of the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing and fork.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  I just watched a youtube video of a brand new F150 that needed tail light replacements. Due to all the electronics (lidar IIRC), replacing both was around $5600. And, it prevented the truck from even starting. Just for tail lights. That's pretty much what you can get an entire engine installed for on an older vehicle. Parts for new vehicles are also very hard to obtain right now. Much easier to get parts for 15+ year old (domestic) vehicle.
  - throw1234651234 3y ago
    These are, for the most part, nitpicked exceptions of expensive models or expensive optional upgrades. Get a new Civic or GR86 (or even Supra / V8 Mustang) and you won't have any of this. Yes, you can't turn off nannies on the Integra fully for example, but it's still a fuse away.
  - 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

Yep. For my part, I simply cannot imagine buying a relatively modern car for a whole bunch of reasons, including this. I don't want a smartphone on wheels. I want a car.

tfandango 3y ago

That's awesome! I just lost my old 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee when it decided to blow its engine at 107K miles. I'm told it had something to do with the variable valve timing system they put in, then I found out that this is not an uncommon problem such that some people pay 1000s of dollars to remove this feature from their engine. Replacing the engine would have cost me 14k. I had no idea, but I long for a car that isn't essentially disposable after 10 years. I really wish they made a car like that these days.

mdp2021 3y ago

Europe is in an effort to forbid those vehicles circulation. New cars are unwantable, old cars are progressively banned.

dragonwriter 3y ago

That was my general opinion on 1990s cars in the 1990s when my car was a 1972 VW beetle. I had the shop manual, and most things that didn't need a lift for I could do myself. Now I’ve got a full-time job, own a house, and have a spouse and children and even if I could have something as simple to work on as a ’72 Beetle, I wouldn't want to spend my time doing the work on it. And I like modern features like lane assist and radar cruise control and blindspot sensors that you can't get via a phone (and I prefer integrating a phone via Android Auto rather than using the actual phone for the UI rather than just the brains of the functions it does power.) Yeah, modern cars or more expensive than an old car, and, yes, it costs more cash to pay someone to maintain it than to maintain an older car yourself, but cash costs aren't the only costs, opportunity costs are a thing.

saiya-jin 3y ago
And then there is security aspect. Crash safety was not a priority back then, crumple zones, airbags etc. were often simply not there yet or in very basic form. Yeah all looks fine when looking just at the financial numbers but once you are in serious crash and will see yourself crippled or kids dying, that penny saving may not look that good idea. There is vast ocean of cars between hyper modern mess of interconnected unmaintainability and these unsafe old metal bricks. They may not be the best solution in 20 years, but right now they are great.
beej71 3y ago
The main issue occurs when nobody can fix the car themselves. Then you are forced to go to the stealership for repairs and you pay over a barrel. It won't just cost more; it'll cost bank. So even if you don't want to repair the car, you most definitely want a car that you could repair.
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]

nullwarp 3y ago

I have a 1995 F-350 Power Stroke that I will probably be buried in. There is very little in that truck I can't fix or change. Slightly newer but also have a basic 2012 F-150 5.0 that is probably the easiest thing I've ever owned to work on that i daily drive. Having worked on some of the newer Ecoboost's so many damn tubes and wiring everywhere.

yowlingcat 3y ago

Are there any new cars that buck this trend? I've been buying used 00s vehicles for a while but a day will come when I won't be able to use that approach to buy simplicity with reliability and cost effectiveness.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

karaterobot 3y ago

I actually had the following (mental) debate about a decade ago: > Given that we can see that cars are going to send more and more data about me to manufacturers, and that this will get worse with every new generation of car that comes out, I should only buy used cars from the 90s that don't do this. On the other hand, eventually cars from this era will become too old to be practical, even with maintenance and repair. This may be in twenty years, or fifty years, but eventually I'll no longer be able to keep a 1996 Toyota pickup on the road. At that point, I will have to buy a newer vehicle. At that point, I'll either buy a brand new vehicle, and I will probably freak out and panic at the amount of garbage they've packed into it by then. Or, I could buy a succession of newer used vehicles, each more packed with electronic garbage than the last one, and I will have merely delayed the encroachment on my privacy and driving experience by a couple decades, not prevented it. So, really, it's going to happen one way or the other, and maybe it's better to just be the frog who is slowly boiled rather than have it happen all at once. I guess I'll just buy newer cars as needed, like everybody else, and just be slightly less happy about it each time. This is not a commentary on your decision, this is just a glimpse into my (tortured, possibly idiotic) thought process.

forgetfreeman 3y ago
I'm in a similar position but considering a different exit strategy: EV conversion. Still cheaper than a new car and since it isn't OEM there's no digital surveillance suite.

pengaru 3y ago

The 90s were the inflection point where "tech" and necessity intersected for many brands. We finally got mature and minimalist EFI+emissions controls, cars with vacuum lines numbering in the single digits, delivering relatively great all-round performance. Once you start seeing drive-by-wire / brake-by-wire / "on-star" systems appearing it's pretty much all downhill. They just couldn't leave well enough alone. What we needed was automation for carburetors mostly to run the catalytic convertors without self-destructing. Once we got that it's mostly solutions looking for problems (and revenue streams). What I want from EVs is an electrified version of that 90s-era simplicity with the modicum of necessary automation (in EVs that's probably all thermal/(dis)charge rate management and battery balancing). Just replace the ICE/ECU/tank with a motor+ESC+battery and leave out the touchscreens and driver deprecation+surveillance trash. I feel like there must be a business opportunity to produce EVs in this vein. What's the affordable Driver's Car EV brand? Are we all just waiting for Mazda to deliver an EV Miata? I can't be alone here.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

It's straightforward to do all the regular maintenance on an EV yourself, mostly because there is so much less of it to do. And the core drivetrain is extremely simple and robust. But like every other vehicle we've had in our pothole ridden city, the weakness is the suspension.