4 ms·

What I'd like to see is that this fiasco encourages studios to produce their own engines rather than using the pre/existing selection. I'd happily wait another

What I'd like to see is that this fiasco encourages studios to produce their own engines rather than using the pre/existing selection. I'd happily wait another 5-7 years for a new game on a new engine then have a new game in two years that feels identical to others. And then open-source it and let the creativity roam free.

armancdev 3y ago
I disagree. It's not an engine problem if a game look like others. Most of the time, it's not lack of creativity too. It's often, not taking risk and applying what is already working.
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  And using a game engine lets you take those risks because you can iterate and release faster. Studios will take more risk on a $3m game than a $6m game.
  - doublerabbit 3y ago
    Rightly so, but than the $3m game feels like every other $3m game. Without the risk, you don't get the whole innovated design of a new game.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>encourages studios to produce their own engines rather than using the pre/existing selection. >And then open-source it and let the creativity roam free. These things are mutually exclusive.
_the_inflator 3y ago
I disagree. It is a lot of effort to build and maintain an engine. To be more precise, there is no such thing as a pure engine, but a platform with tools. Hardly anyone can build these things alone or even with a small team. Most indie games and devs would not exist without Unity and it makes perfectly sense to use services from 3rd parties. We all do, we all rely on others. On the other hand, a steady and trustworthy business relationship is key. While I understand Unity, they wanna earn money, I think it is bad to act in such a manner. Regarding the "look a like" feeling: This only shows, that the market works this way. How could an engine change that?
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  It's more the feeling of the mechanics, game-play. Certain aspects carry through regardless of the genre and how modified the engine has. A game to me modeled in Unreal engine feels like all others created in Unreal.
- raytopia 3y ago
  The engine is the medium gamedevs work in so it does highly effect the types of games they even think about designing. For instance the kinds of games made in RPG Maker vs Threejs vs Unity vs Pico-8. So by having more engines we'd get more types of games because the different constraints of those engines would impact the games developers will make. Hence like I said the engine is the medium.
  - _the_inflator 3y ago
    I like you reasoning and I agree on this point. However, this also works the other way around: give people a new platform and tools, and let them focus on game design. Why reinvent the wheel? The examples you mentioned would mean, that everyone who is using Pico-8 is basically a rip-off and not creative enough to build their own completely innovative platform. RPG Maker is Unity in disguise with a different business model, same goes for any other platform. There are a lot of great ideas no one is willing to pay for. Sacrificing time for no pay is a hobby. I wish some many game dev a cash cow, so that they can focus on others things as well. I don't have a problem with artists going so-called mainstream to earn a living.
    - raytopia 3y ago
      I do agree that new platforms and tools are important and I wasn't clear enough that I don't think that everyone needs to make their own tools and platforms but more of them is good. So I agree not everyone should reinvent the wheel I wouldn't say that everyone is a rip off using Pico-8 in fact I think Pico-8 is amazing and I'm very grateful that the platform was developed because it's changed my views on game development and its author would agree that the medium you work in is very important. he idea of a cozy design space is what lead to its development. And RPG Maker certainly isn't Unity in disguise (well I guess the older versions) and because they way it's designed leads to very different games then Unity even though you can create the same kinds of games in Unity. I have no problems with artists making a living from their work either and I also have no problems with people exploring new ways to make games. so I guess what I'm saying is not everyone needs to go out and make a Unity/Unreal/Godot clone but I wish more people would explore the fact that their tools are a medium and can greatly impact the type of art they make.
stuckinhell 3y ago
Square enix spent millions on their in house engines (luminous engine). They have a good report on how and why it wasn't a great investment (10 year delays on projects). They've switched to unreal for everything now.
- jsnell 3y ago
  I'm not having any luck finding this. Do you happen to have a link?
  - stuckinhell 3y ago
    https://www.gamezone.com/originals/square-enix-needs-to-tighten-its-belts-a-story-of-budgets-and-engines-jum9/ https://www.gamezone.com/originals/square-enix-needs-to-tigh...
- raytopia 3y ago
  It seems like part of the problem is they're being poorly managed https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/report-square-enix-mismanagement-ad-hoc-dev-process https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/report-square-enix-mi...
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I mean, not everything. It was criticized all over but Forspoken was still a 2023 release for Luminous. On top of that, FF16 is using some custom engine as well. People assume it's a fork of FF14's engine, but nothing official.
willio58 3y ago
I think it will just more people into existing engines like Unreal and Godot.
ThrowawayR2 3y ago
Building a custom engine costs a lot of money and adds risk to a project. Games already have a very high probability of not breaking even and so publishers are going to be extremely reluctant to take on any additional risks.
raytopia 3y ago
I do agree that more engines would be nice especially if they push workflows in different ways.
grotorea 3y ago
I don't think this changes the enormous benefit of not having to build your own engine, specially for indie games. To me this is encouragement to avoid situations where you can have the rug pulled out from under you, i.e. either go full open source or have a better license agreement than Unity was offering.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
Games haven't had that "dell identical" issue for years on end. Would you really believe Hollow Knight, Genshin Impact, and Pokemon Brilliant Diamond were all made on the same engine? >And then open-source it and let the creativity roam free. Well now you're just hoping for the moon. Many studios do indeed have their own engines in house, but I believe CryEngine is the only one that eventually became open source (over a decade, an aquisition, and two forks later).

armancdev 3y ago

I disagree. It's not an engine problem if a game look like others. Most of the time, it's not lack of creativity too. It's often, not taking risk and applying what is already working.

JamesBarney 3y ago
And using a game engine lets you take those risks because you can iterate and release faster. Studios will take more risk on a $3m game than a $6m game.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  Rightly so, but than the $3m game feels like every other $3m game. Without the risk, you don't get the whole innovated design of a new game.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>encourages studios to produce their own engines rather than using the pre/existing selection. >And then open-source it and let the creativity roam free. These things are mutually exclusive.

_the_inflator 3y ago

I disagree. It is a lot of effort to build and maintain an engine. To be more precise, there is no such thing as a pure engine, but a platform with tools. Hardly anyone can build these things alone or even with a small team. Most indie games and devs would not exist without Unity and it makes perfectly sense to use services from 3rd parties. We all do, we all rely on others. On the other hand, a steady and trustworthy business relationship is key. While I understand Unity, they wanna earn money, I think it is bad to act in such a manner. Regarding the "look a like" feeling: This only shows, that the market works this way. How could an engine change that?

doublerabbit 3y ago
It's more the feeling of the mechanics, game-play. Certain aspects carry through regardless of the genre and how modified the engine has. A game to me modeled in Unreal engine feels like all others created in Unreal.
raytopia 3y ago
The engine is the medium gamedevs work in so it does highly effect the types of games they even think about designing. For instance the kinds of games made in RPG Maker vs Threejs vs Unity vs Pico-8. So by having more engines we'd get more types of games because the different constraints of those engines would impact the games developers will make. Hence like I said the engine is the medium.
- _the_inflator 3y ago
  I like you reasoning and I agree on this point. However, this also works the other way around: give people a new platform and tools, and let them focus on game design. Why reinvent the wheel? The examples you mentioned would mean, that everyone who is using Pico-8 is basically a rip-off and not creative enough to build their own completely innovative platform. RPG Maker is Unity in disguise with a different business model, same goes for any other platform. There are a lot of great ideas no one is willing to pay for. Sacrificing time for no pay is a hobby. I wish some many game dev a cash cow, so that they can focus on others things as well. I don't have a problem with artists going so-called mainstream to earn a living.
  - raytopia 3y ago
    I do agree that new platforms and tools are important and I wasn't clear enough that I don't think that everyone needs to make their own tools and platforms but more of them is good. So I agree not everyone should reinvent the wheel I wouldn't say that everyone is a rip off using Pico-8 in fact I think Pico-8 is amazing and I'm very grateful that the platform was developed because it's changed my views on game development and its author would agree that the medium you work in is very important. he idea of a cozy design space is what lead to its development. And RPG Maker certainly isn't Unity in disguise (well I guess the older versions) and because they way it's designed leads to very different games then Unity even though you can create the same kinds of games in Unity. I have no problems with artists making a living from their work either and I also have no problems with people exploring new ways to make games. so I guess what I'm saying is not everyone needs to go out and make a Unity/Unreal/Godot clone but I wish more people would explore the fact that their tools are a medium and can greatly impact the type of art they make.

stuckinhell 3y ago

Square enix spent millions on their in house engines (luminous engine). They have a good report on how and why it wasn't a great investment (10 year delays on projects). They've switched to unreal for everything now.

jsnell 3y ago
I'm not having any luck finding this. Do you happen to have a link?
- stuckinhell 3y ago
  https://www.gamezone.com/originals/square-enix-needs-to-tighten-its-belts-a-story-of-budgets-and-engines-jum9/ https://www.gamezone.com/originals/square-enix-needs-to-tigh...
raytopia 3y ago
It seems like part of the problem is they're being poorly managed https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/report-square-enix-mismanagement-ad-hoc-dev-process https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/report-square-enix-mi...
johnnyanmac 3y ago
I mean, not everything. It was criticized all over but Forspoken was still a 2023 release for Luminous. On top of that, FF16 is using some custom engine as well. People assume it's a fork of FF14's engine, but nothing official.

willio58 3y ago

I think it will just more people into existing engines like Unreal and Godot.

ThrowawayR2 3y ago

Building a custom engine costs a lot of money and adds risk to a project. Games already have a very high probability of not breaking even and so publishers are going to be extremely reluctant to take on any additional risks.

raytopia 3y ago

I do agree that more engines would be nice especially if they push workflows in different ways.

grotorea 3y ago

I don't think this changes the enormous benefit of not having to build your own engine, specially for indie games. To me this is encouragement to avoid situations where you can have the rug pulled out from under you, i.e. either go full open source or have a better license agreement than Unity was offering.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

Games haven't had that "dell identical" issue for years on end. Would you really believe Hollow Knight, Genshin Impact, and Pokemon Brilliant Diamond were all made on the same engine? >And then open-source it and let the creativity roam free. Well now you're just hoping for the moon. Many studios do indeed have their own engines in house, but I believe CryEngine is the only one that eventually became open source (over a decade, an aquisition, and two forks later).