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> I don't know why Wayland gets so much hate. To me it feels very much like the systemd hate: I don't know why this needs to change; I was happy after all. I do

> I don't know why Wayland gets so much hate. To me it feels very much like the systemd hate: I don't know why this needs to change; I was happy after all. I don't want to learn about a new thing, so I'm angry. Perhaps you haven't experienced it yourself, but systemd and Wayland have both caused a lot of unjustifiable problems for a lot of people. That's where the widespread displeasure with them comes from. It has nothing to do with dealing with change itself or learning something new. If systemd and Wayland had brought me some tangible benefits, without also bringing me significant pain, then I'd be perfectly happy adopting them like I frequently do for other new-to-me software that makes my life better. Unfortunately, that's not reality. For example, I've had to deal with far too many Linux installations that no longer boot thanks to systemd (or one of its many components) unexpectedly breaking in one way or another, often after what should be routine updates. I've never had any success with the Wayland implementations I've tried, either. They've performed horribly on the computers of mine that I've tried them on, to the point of being pretty much unusable. A default installation of X on the same Linux installations works much better and is completely usable, however. Based on all of the mailing list emails, forum postings, chat logs, bug reports, articles, and other online material that I've seen while trying to sort out such problems with systemd or Wayland, it's clear to me that I'm not the only one experiencing such troubles. Even if I hadn't experienced such problems, neither systemd nor Wayland would benefit me in any meaningful way. At best, they're merely replacing what I've already been using for years or even decades, rather than improving upon them.

pas 3y ago
systemd brought me a lot of benefits (both as a power user and as a sysadmin), I'm not that much in the know with regards to X vs Wayland, but nowadays stock Ubuntu with Gnome on AMD uses Wayland and dual 4K monitors with hi-dpi scaling and 60Hz and 120Hz works. the more important thing is ... not a lot of people stepped up to maintain the old ways. if they are so superior, why isn't there a big group doing it? ... that said, yes, systemd is crap, it's an endless pile of C instead of the previous [ba]sh bonanza, but it works, and it does a lot of things, and the maintainers are active and doing a lot of good things. plus it's finally standardized across distros. and any talk about Wayland or X is completely irrelevant as the bugs that frustrate users are not in the protocols, all of them are in the implementations. I, like many starry eyed nix users, motivated to grow the bazaar [had many attempts at contributing] by opening issues, reporting bugs, trying to debug stuff, using beta/dev/nightly/canary/RC stuff ... but it did not make much of a difference. there's just not enough dev bandwidth to deal with even trivial stuff. I mean it's sometimes* after wake up it's impossible to interact with the Gnome lockscreen with the keyboard unless first clicking on it with the mouse, on Xfce sometimes after opening the lid the screen is visible, and on KDE ... well, on KDE I don't even know what bug I tried to report, but no, fuck Bugzilla. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/3135 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/4858 [something solved] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=251935 [on xfce just uninstall "light locker"] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingScreenLocking#Known_bugs [it's just madness] ... and of course I could go on. And why these problems happen? Because the stack is ossified as fuck, because complexity is through the roof (due to hardware frontrunning the whole show by a (?) decade), and because OS developers being, well, folks who in their infinite wisdom stick to C and C++ and even introducing JS to the stack. (And many people remember when Ballmer-peak Microsoft tried to move to something memory safe, but couldn't... because "it was too hard". Yeah, just hacking everything together somehow is always the smart solution.)

pas 3y ago

systemd brought me a lot of benefits (both as a power user and as a sysadmin), I'm not that much in the know with regards to X vs Wayland, but nowadays stock Ubuntu with Gnome on AMD uses Wayland and dual 4K monitors with hi-dpi scaling and 60Hz and 120Hz works. the more important thing is ... not a lot of people stepped up to maintain the old ways. if they are so superior, why isn't there a big group doing it? ... that said, yes, systemd is crap, it's an endless pile of C instead of the previous [ba]sh bonanza, but it works, and it does a lot of things, and the maintainers are active and doing a lot of good things. plus it's finally standardized across distros. and any talk about Wayland or X is completely irrelevant as the bugs that frustrate users are not in the protocols, all of them are in the implementations. I, like many starry eyed nix users, motivated to grow the bazaar [had many attempts at contributing] by opening issues, reporting bugs, trying to debug stuff, using beta/dev/nightly/canary/RC stuff ... but it did not make much of a difference. there's just not enough dev bandwidth to deal with even trivial stuff. I mean it's sometimes* after wake up it's impossible to interact with the Gnome lockscreen with the keyboard unless first clicking on it with the mouse, on Xfce sometimes after opening the lid the screen is visible, and on KDE ... well, on KDE I don't even know what bug I tried to report, but no, fuck Bugzilla. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/3135 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/4858 [something solved] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=251935 [on xfce just uninstall "light locker"] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingScreenLocking#Known_bugs [it's just madness] ... and of course I could go on. And why these problems happen? Because the stack is ossified as fuck, because complexity is through the roof (due to hardware frontrunning the whole show by a (?) decade), and because OS developers being, well, folks who in their infinite wisdom stick to C and C++ and even introducing JS to the stack. (And many people remember when Ballmer-peak Microsoft tried to move to something memory safe, but couldn't... because "it was too hard". Yeah, just hacking everything together somehow is always the smart solution.)