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I think there is a third definition of "science": 3. What is actually happening in academia I think most people exposed to science#3 from the inside can agree

I think there is a third definition of "science": 3. What is actually happening in academia I think most people exposed to science#3 from the inside can agree that science#2 works – and indeed works surprisingly well – despite science#3, not because of it.

mathematicaster 3y ago
Top comment. My adjacent refrain is "Science is not the same as people trying to do science".
- biomcgary 3y ago
  The work of philosophers and sociologists of science, Kuhn and Feyerabend in particular, support this perspective.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mistermann 3y ago
  Scientists trying to do science is a component of broad science, is it not?
  - mike_hearn 3y ago
    Only if they succeed at doing science. If they just engage in pseudo-science then it's not.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
Agreed; I have a few friends who quit academia, and few who stayed. Some of their experiences are hope-inspiring, some are depressing. Same for those in government employ. But I don't think as academia as the only, or even necessarily the most important place that science is happening in the world today.
tivert 3y ago
> I think there is a third definition of "science": > 3. What is actually happening in academia While we're enumerating, I think there's a fourth definition: 4. "Science" as a belief system rather than as a tool/technology. I think in this respect, there's often an unacknowledged (or denied) blurring between science and science fiction (the more traditional "spaceship books" kind, as well as overconfident speculation). There's also a tendency to claim the prestige and authority of science for one's own personal opinions and preferences.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  I think the word "Scientism" (also) covers that one ?
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    According to wiktionary, 'scientism' has these meanings: 1. The belief that the scientific method and the assumptions and research methods of the physical sciences are applicable to all other disciplines (such as the humanities and social sciences), or that those other disciplines are not as valuable. 2. The belief that all truth is exclusively discovered through science. Maybe the second definition kind of fits if you stretch it. I think 'futurism', not in the sense of the artistic movement, is a closer fit; '2. The study and prediction of possible futures.'
    - mistermann 3y ago
      Believe it or not, I have had more than one person tell me with sincerity that observing the contents of a box is "doing science", I imagine because they believe that science is actually the only way to acquire knowledge. Meanwhile, these people mock the religious [in their imagination] for "being" insular/fundamentalist.
      - T-A 3y ago
        “When you break an egg and scramble it you are doing cosmology,” said Sean Carroll, a cosmologist at the California Institute of Technology. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html
wolverine876 3y ago
Is that the negative attitude the OP refers to?
jltsiren 3y ago
I often trust science as a social process more than the scientific method. The scientific method works best in fields such as physics and chemistry, where you have an established model of reality. The model has been extensively tested and validated, and you can use it to design experiments that will likely test what they are supposed to, taking all relevant factors into account. Other fields, particularly those that are most affected by the replication crisis, study phenomena that are too complex for such comprehensive models. Instead of testing established mechanisms, such fields often use the scientific method to investigate black boxes. Designing experiments is harder, because it's not clear if you are measuring the right things in the right way, or which factors could plausibly affect the results. You may not even be sure if the mechanisms the experiments rely on actually exist and if they are properly understood. I like to think that the replication crisis is the social process trying to deal with the issues resulting from overreliance on the scientific method. When you can't rely on an established body of knowledge, a focus on the method takes your attention away from questioning your assumptions and understanding them.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > I like to think that the replication crisis is the social process trying to deal with the issues resulting from overreliance on the scientific method. When you can't rely on an established body of knowledge, a focus on the method takes your attention away from questioning your assumptions and understanding them. Which particular research are you thinking of?

mathematicaster 3y ago

Top comment. My adjacent refrain is "Science is not the same as people trying to do science".

biomcgary 3y ago
The work of philosophers and sociologists of science, Kuhn and Feyerabend in particular, support this perspective.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mistermann 3y ago
Scientists trying to do science is a component of broad science, is it not?
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  Only if they succeed at doing science. If they just engage in pseudo-science then it's not.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

Agreed; I have a few friends who quit academia, and few who stayed. Some of their experiences are hope-inspiring, some are depressing. Same for those in government employ. But I don't think as academia as the only, or even necessarily the most important place that science is happening in the world today.

tivert 3y ago

> I think there is a third definition of "science": > 3. What is actually happening in academia While we're enumerating, I think there's a fourth definition: 4. "Science" as a belief system rather than as a tool/technology. I think in this respect, there's often an unacknowledged (or denied) blurring between science and science fiction (the more traditional "spaceship books" kind, as well as overconfident speculation). There's also a tendency to claim the prestige and authority of science for one's own personal opinions and preferences.

BlueTemplar 3y ago
I think the word "Scientism" (also) covers that one ?
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  According to wiktionary, 'scientism' has these meanings: 1. The belief that the scientific method and the assumptions and research methods of the physical sciences are applicable to all other disciplines (such as the humanities and social sciences), or that those other disciplines are not as valuable. 2. The belief that all truth is exclusively discovered through science. Maybe the second definition kind of fits if you stretch it. I think 'futurism', not in the sense of the artistic movement, is a closer fit; '2. The study and prediction of possible futures.'
  - mistermann 3y ago
    Believe it or not, I have had more than one person tell me with sincerity that observing the contents of a box is "doing science", I imagine because they believe that science is actually the only way to acquire knowledge. Meanwhile, these people mock the religious [in their imagination] for "being" insular/fundamentalist.
    - T-A 3y ago
      “When you break an egg and scramble it you are doing cosmology,” said Sean Carroll, a cosmologist at the California Institute of Technology. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html

wolverine876 3y ago

Is that the negative attitude the OP refers to?

jltsiren 3y ago

I often trust science as a social process more than the scientific method. The scientific method works best in fields such as physics and chemistry, where you have an established model of reality. The model has been extensively tested and validated, and you can use it to design experiments that will likely test what they are supposed to, taking all relevant factors into account. Other fields, particularly those that are most affected by the replication crisis, study phenomena that are too complex for such comprehensive models. Instead of testing established mechanisms, such fields often use the scientific method to investigate black boxes. Designing experiments is harder, because it's not clear if you are measuring the right things in the right way, or which factors could plausibly affect the results. You may not even be sure if the mechanisms the experiments rely on actually exist and if they are properly understood. I like to think that the replication crisis is the social process trying to deal with the issues resulting from overreliance on the scientific method. When you can't rely on an established body of knowledge, a focus on the method takes your attention away from questioning your assumptions and understanding them.

wolverine876 3y ago
> I like to think that the replication crisis is the social process trying to deal with the issues resulting from overreliance on the scientific method. When you can't rely on an established body of knowledge, a focus on the method takes your attention away from questioning your assumptions and understanding them. Which particular research are you thinking of?