5 ms·

So instead of increased taxation and a municipal government with more powers (mine can fine for unkempt lawns etc), Americans say no, we want freedom and small

So instead of increased taxation and a municipal government with more powers (mine can fine for unkempt lawns etc), Americans say no, we want freedom and small government. Then you invent HOAs to remove those same freedoms, levy fees instead of taxes, provide services that really should be handled by the city, and are more oppressive? I just don't understand.

rcpt 3y ago
Property taxes break everyone's brain. Owners will support any alternative no matter how ridiculous.
Clubber 3y ago
The reason people like them, I've heard, is they help keep the value of your property high. I prefer doing what I want with my property, so I won't buy a property in a HOA. >Americans That's quite a large and diverse demographic to make generalizations with. >Then you invent HOAs to remove those same freedoms, levy fees instead of taxes, provide services that really should be handled by the city, and are more oppressive? I just don't understand. I can live in that same city without an HOA. I can't live in that same city without the high taxation and oppressive government. It's about options, I suspect.
- morkalork 3y ago
  I don't completely buy the property value argument. Cities like them being high too because it means more tax revenue and they're not afraid of making bylaws to enforce it. So for example, when one gets a building permit to an exterior renovation, the city will calculate the square footage of siding vs brick before and after, with the requirement that the amount of brick doesn't decrease. Because any less lowers the property value.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    Not all cities are like that. The one I'm in isn't. There are also laws in many cities where they can't reappraise the tax value of the home without a significant renovation. This is to keep elderly people in their homes who are on a fixed income. It's a lot more complicated than, "tax good," but yes, that's the gist.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  I don't mind a city fining for unkempt lawns, and I think people who cannot abide by that should find a different city. The benefit of the municipality doing it is that they're more accountable in court and the polls. How does one contest an HOA fine?
  - vel0city 3y ago
    How do you think people get on the boards of HOAs? They're elected by HOA members. Who are the members? The people who live in the HOA. The people running the HOA almost always are accountable by polls, even more local polls than municipal elections.
    - plagiarist 3y ago
      What is the process to challenge an HOA fine?
      - vel0city 3y ago
        What's the process to register a car? What's the process to challenge a service contract? How do I reserve a room at the municipal activity center? How do I challenge a water bill? It probably varies from places to place, doesn't it? You'd have to check the bylaws of a given HOA. There's probably some address you're supposed to write a letter to explaining the challenge, then it gets reviewed, etc. Eventually courts could get involved. But I doubt one could give a specific set of steps that applies to every HOA.
        plagiarist 3y ago
        Seems like you need to bring up several unrelated issues to pretend you have a point. The HOA is a contract which may include binding arbitration. You might not be able to bring it to court or appeal.
        vel0city 3y ago
        I bring up all those other things because there isn't a single "well you just do x dummy!" answer to any of those in the same way there's no single answer to how do you challenge an HOA fine. Maybe there's binding arbitration. Maybe there isnt. You'd have to look it up, you can't say that's the process every time. And hey, you can lobby your neighbors to change it, it's not set in stone. Just like if your city has some dumb ordinance nobody likes. There wasn't any binding arbitration clause in any HOA bylaws for any house I was looking at buying, so suggesting that's some standard thing doesn't seem accurate to me. I've got a super basic question. I'm sure you can give an exact answer to. What time does the restaurant close?
- isk517 3y ago
  >The reason people like them, I've heard, is they help keep the value of your property high. I'm starting to feel like treating homes like a investment that will continue to accumulate value instead of a place to live that everyone requires is starting to backfire.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    That's unfortunately not a choice that can be made either way. If something has demand, can be bought and sold, and has value, there is inherently an economic market for it.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  The irony I see is that in order to keep property values high, you need people to want to buy them. Since pretty much everyone I've ever met and everyone on the comment thread hate HOAs, then people are buying these house despite they're being in an HOA and not because of it. It would seem non-HOA houses would be MORE valuable because they lack something most buyers hate.
plagiarist 3y ago
The ideal would be if we could pick one billionaire to have absolute control over our lawncare fines, then the Invisible Hand will solve all the problems.
munificent 3y ago
I've never once heard someone here in a America state that they sought out or preferred an HOA. But when shopping for a home, you have to make trade-offs and for many people, a house with an HOA is the perceived least-bad choice of the options available to them.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  > I've never once heard someone here in a America state that they sought out or preferred an HOA. I have. When I lived in the Seattle area, I would ask people about why they preferred HOAs. The conversations always went the same way, and mostly ended the same way. They brought up the unthinkable horrors of someone working on a car in their driveway ("What if the car was up on blocks for months?"), or leaving a trash can out too long, and their trump card, oddly enough, was asking the question about the Lovecraftian horror of suburban owners: "But what if your neighbor painted their house purple?" - as though this were self evidently the most awfully awful thing someone could ever do (I wouldn't paint my house purple, but I know of a number of them, and they don't bother me in the slightest). The conversations usually ended, after a few more questions, with some variant of "Really, HOAs are designed to inhibit people like you." Because I didn't see anything wrong with working on a car in your driveway, and I'm as likely as not to wander over with a couple beers and go BS about cars. I've done a lot of automotive maintenance in apartment parking lots that forbid it, because I had no better options. There's this set of people who really value outside appearances on houses and properties, and react with horror to people who don't see the same problems they do. They tend to like HOAs. I currently live somewhere that very much has no HOA. I'm sure they'd be utterly horrified by my old tractor and stuff that wanders the property, but that's why I don't have an HOA. :)
  - munificent 3y ago
    I live in Seattle, but I guess I'm lucky enough to have never encountered anyone like that.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
    Sounds like freedom (tm) actually takes on the meaning of "the freedom to stop other people from doing things you don't like". I wonder also if some of this is pure herd perception. Like, what if nobody personally cares that someone paints their house purple or works on their car. What if they just want to stop it because they think OTHER people won't like it and therefore won't put a bid on their house if and when they sell it. But in reality those buyers don't care either. Nobody cares, but everyone pretends they do because they think that everyone else does.
pandaman 3y ago
It's not instead of anything. A township government can only enforce the code, even if you paid 200% property tax. And codes are pretty loose because to change it you need some kind of majority in the town government. And even if something has been made a code it doesn't mean the government can enforce it, for example my city is barred from enforcing the code on short term rentals by a law suit, which will take years to resolve.

rcpt 3y ago

Property taxes break everyone's brain. Owners will support any alternative no matter how ridiculous.

Clubber 3y ago

The reason people like them, I've heard, is they help keep the value of your property high. I prefer doing what I want with my property, so I won't buy a property in a HOA. >Americans That's quite a large and diverse demographic to make generalizations with. >Then you invent HOAs to remove those same freedoms, levy fees instead of taxes, provide services that really should be handled by the city, and are more oppressive? I just don't understand. I can live in that same city without an HOA. I can't live in that same city without the high taxation and oppressive government. It's about options, I suspect.

morkalork 3y ago
I don't completely buy the property value argument. Cities like them being high too because it means more tax revenue and they're not afraid of making bylaws to enforce it. So for example, when one gets a building permit to an exterior renovation, the city will calculate the square footage of siding vs brick before and after, with the requirement that the amount of brick doesn't decrease. Because any less lowers the property value.
- Clubber 3y ago
  Not all cities are like that. The one I'm in isn't. There are also laws in many cities where they can't reappraise the tax value of the home without a significant renovation. This is to keep elderly people in their homes who are on a fixed income. It's a lot more complicated than, "tax good," but yes, that's the gist.
plagiarist 3y ago
I don't mind a city fining for unkempt lawns, and I think people who cannot abide by that should find a different city. The benefit of the municipality doing it is that they're more accountable in court and the polls. How does one contest an HOA fine?
- vel0city 3y ago
  How do you think people get on the boards of HOAs? They're elected by HOA members. Who are the members? The people who live in the HOA. The people running the HOA almost always are accountable by polls, even more local polls than municipal elections.
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    What is the process to challenge an HOA fine?
    - vel0city 3y ago
      What's the process to register a car? What's the process to challenge a service contract? How do I reserve a room at the municipal activity center? How do I challenge a water bill? It probably varies from places to place, doesn't it? You'd have to check the bylaws of a given HOA. There's probably some address you're supposed to write a letter to explaining the challenge, then it gets reviewed, etc. Eventually courts could get involved. But I doubt one could give a specific set of steps that applies to every HOA.
      - plagiarist 3y ago
        Seems like you need to bring up several unrelated issues to pretend you have a point. The HOA is a contract which may include binding arbitration. You might not be able to bring it to court or appeal.
        vel0city 3y ago
        I bring up all those other things because there isn't a single "well you just do x dummy!" answer to any of those in the same way there's no single answer to how do you challenge an HOA fine. Maybe there's binding arbitration. Maybe there isnt. You'd have to look it up, you can't say that's the process every time. And hey, you can lobby your neighbors to change it, it's not set in stone. Just like if your city has some dumb ordinance nobody likes. There wasn't any binding arbitration clause in any HOA bylaws for any house I was looking at buying, so suggesting that's some standard thing doesn't seem accurate to me. I've got a super basic question. I'm sure you can give an exact answer to. What time does the restaurant close?
isk517 3y ago
>The reason people like them, I've heard, is they help keep the value of your property high. I'm starting to feel like treating homes like a investment that will continue to accumulate value instead of a place to live that everyone requires is starting to backfire.
- kube-system 3y ago
  That's unfortunately not a choice that can be made either way. If something has demand, can be bought and sold, and has value, there is inherently an economic market for it.
Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
The irony I see is that in order to keep property values high, you need people to want to buy them. Since pretty much everyone I've ever met and everyone on the comment thread hate HOAs, then people are buying these house despite they're being in an HOA and not because of it. It would seem non-HOA houses would be MORE valuable because they lack something most buyers hate.

plagiarist 3y ago

The ideal would be if we could pick one billionaire to have absolute control over our lawncare fines, then the Invisible Hand will solve all the problems.

munificent 3y ago

I've never once heard someone here in a America state that they sought out or preferred an HOA. But when shopping for a home, you have to make trade-offs and for many people, a house with an HOA is the perceived least-bad choice of the options available to them.

Syonyk 3y ago
> I've never once heard someone here in a America state that they sought out or preferred an HOA. I have. When I lived in the Seattle area, I would ask people about why they preferred HOAs. The conversations always went the same way, and mostly ended the same way. They brought up the unthinkable horrors of someone working on a car in their driveway ("What if the car was up on blocks for months?"), or leaving a trash can out too long, and their trump card, oddly enough, was asking the question about the Lovecraftian horror of suburban owners: "But what if your neighbor painted their house purple?" - as though this were self evidently the most awfully awful thing someone could ever do (I wouldn't paint my house purple, but I know of a number of them, and they don't bother me in the slightest). The conversations usually ended, after a few more questions, with some variant of "Really, HOAs are designed to inhibit people like you." Because I didn't see anything wrong with working on a car in your driveway, and I'm as likely as not to wander over with a couple beers and go BS about cars. I've done a lot of automotive maintenance in apartment parking lots that forbid it, because I had no better options. There's this set of people who really value outside appearances on houses and properties, and react with horror to people who don't see the same problems they do. They tend to like HOAs. I currently live somewhere that very much has no HOA. I'm sure they'd be utterly horrified by my old tractor and stuff that wanders the property, but that's why I don't have an HOA. :)
- munificent 3y ago
  I live in Seattle, but I guess I'm lucky enough to have never encountered anyone like that.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  Sounds like freedom (tm) actually takes on the meaning of "the freedom to stop other people from doing things you don't like". I wonder also if some of this is pure herd perception. Like, what if nobody personally cares that someone paints their house purple or works on their car. What if they just want to stop it because they think OTHER people won't like it and therefore won't put a bid on their house if and when they sell it. But in reality those buyers don't care either. Nobody cares, but everyone pretends they do because they think that everyone else does.

pandaman 3y ago

It's not instead of anything. A township government can only enforce the code, even if you paid 200% property tax. And codes are pretty loose because to change it you need some kind of majority in the town government. And even if something has been made a code it doesn't mean the government can enforce it, for example my city is barred from enforcing the code on short term rentals by a law suit, which will take years to resolve.