3 ms·

(non-American here, so take this with grain of salt) 30% looks reasonable to me. That is 70% are sold locally. Does other water-using industries exports aroun

(non-American here, so take this with grain of salt) 30% looks reasonable to me. That is 70% are sold locally. Does other water-using industries exports around the same percentage?

dr-detroit 3y ago
[dead]
lolinder 3y ago
It's specifically a problem because Utah is a desert. Alfalfa fed to local cows that are consumed locally keeps the water in our ecosystem, within the bounds of our natural water cycle. Alfalfa fed to cows overseas exports our water overseas, so it doesn't reenter the water cycle locally, and it may never find its way back (on human timescales). You can think of it as having a trade deficit for water—we're not importing it in sufficient quantities to make up for our exports, and the result is that our local environment gradually dries out. Wetter climates don't have that problem because water that evaporates from the ocean can be treated as unlimited. Edit: Clarified a few things.
- vkou 3y ago
  You are completely wrong about how agricultural water usage works. The water doesn't physically go into the final shipped alfalfa in meaningful quantities. 99.9% of the water that is used in growing alfalfa evaporates, or ends up in the ground, and it doesn't matter whether the remaining 0.1% that actually ends up, and stays inside the plant gets exported to Mars, or consumed locally. When growing alfalfa, 100 tonnes of water is used to produce ~300lb of biomass. When you're sourcing those 100 tonnes unsustainably, it really doesn't matter whether you export the 300lb, or not. You're blaming a foreign boogieman for a domestic, self-inflicted problem.
  - buffington 3y ago
    lolinder was simply pointing out that the problem isn't helped by the shipment of alfalfa overseas. They weren't suggesting that exporting alfalfa is the entire problem. My extended family are cattle ranchers in southern Utah, and a lot of alfalfa is grown to feed cattle in the winter. A lot of the weight of a bundle of alfalfa is water - probably most of it when freshly harvested. When processed, it's left to dry for a while, but the alfalfa that gets sold is probably still 10-20% water. Our ranch doesn't sell the alfalfa we grow, but there are plenty of massive , industrial scale, operations near our ranch that exclusively sell alfalfa on foreign markets. At their scale, not shipping alfalfa overseas would make a meaningful dent in the problem. It wouldn't solve it entirely, but it would likely have a greater impact than people not washing their cars.
    - vkou 3y ago
      > A lot of the weight of a bundle of alfalfa is water - probably most of it when freshly harvested. When processed, it's left to dry for a while, but the alfalfa that gets sold is probably still 10-20% water. And for every liter of water that's left in dry alfalfa, it took ~4,000 liters of water to grow it. You, like the parent poster, are making a huge mistake, in thinking that that one liter that's getting exported is at all a meaningful part of the water sustainability problem with going alfalfa in a desert. It's not. The unsustainable part of it is the other 3999 liters. 'Don't export alfalfa grown in a desert' optimizes the part that isn't important. 'Don't grow alfalfa in a desert' is what people actually need to be doing.
      - buffington 3y ago
        I am not making that mistake. Since I'm also involved in growing said alfalfa, I know very well how much water is used in merely growing it. That I didn't mention that in my reply isn't evidence that I'm making a huge mistake in thinking. In my opinion, exporting any amount of water is too much. Saying that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the other ways in which water could be better managed.
    - lokar 3y ago
      The issue is that the cheap water to grow feed is a social subsidy to the grower. If we are going to do it, the benefit should be local.
deleted 3y ago
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WirelessGigabit 3y ago
Live in Phoenix, which as you know, does not have a lot of water. Alfa-alfa is grown here, packaged and shipped to Saudi-Arabia because it's cheaper this way than for Saudi-Arabia to desalinate water and grown their own stuff. Yet my water bill is going up by 6%.

(non-American here, so take this with grain of salt) 30% looks reasonable to me. That is 70% are sold locally. Does other water-using industries exports around the same percentage?

dr-detroit 3y ago

[dead]

lolinder 3y ago

It's specifically a problem because Utah is a desert. Alfalfa fed to local cows that are consumed locally keeps the water in our ecosystem, within the bounds of our natural water cycle. Alfalfa fed to cows overseas exports our water overseas, so it doesn't reenter the water cycle locally, and it may never find its way back (on human timescales). You can think of it as having a trade deficit for water—we're not importing it in sufficient quantities to make up for our exports, and the result is that our local environment gradually dries out. Wetter climates don't have that problem because water that evaporates from the ocean can be treated as unlimited. Edit: Clarified a few things.

vkou 3y ago
You are completely wrong about how agricultural water usage works. The water doesn't physically go into the final shipped alfalfa in meaningful quantities. 99.9% of the water that is used in growing alfalfa evaporates, or ends up in the ground, and it doesn't matter whether the remaining 0.1% that actually ends up, and stays inside the plant gets exported to Mars, or consumed locally. When growing alfalfa, 100 tonnes of water is used to produce ~300lb of biomass. When you're sourcing those 100 tonnes unsustainably, it really doesn't matter whether you export the 300lb, or not. You're blaming a foreign boogieman for a domestic, self-inflicted problem.
- buffington 3y ago
  lolinder was simply pointing out that the problem isn't helped by the shipment of alfalfa overseas. They weren't suggesting that exporting alfalfa is the entire problem. My extended family are cattle ranchers in southern Utah, and a lot of alfalfa is grown to feed cattle in the winter. A lot of the weight of a bundle of alfalfa is water - probably most of it when freshly harvested. When processed, it's left to dry for a while, but the alfalfa that gets sold is probably still 10-20% water. Our ranch doesn't sell the alfalfa we grow, but there are plenty of massive , industrial scale, operations near our ranch that exclusively sell alfalfa on foreign markets. At their scale, not shipping alfalfa overseas would make a meaningful dent in the problem. It wouldn't solve it entirely, but it would likely have a greater impact than people not washing their cars.
  - vkou 3y ago
    > A lot of the weight of a bundle of alfalfa is water - probably most of it when freshly harvested. When processed, it's left to dry for a while, but the alfalfa that gets sold is probably still 10-20% water. And for every liter of water that's left in dry alfalfa, it took ~4,000 liters of water to grow it. You, like the parent poster, are making a huge mistake, in thinking that that one liter that's getting exported is at all a meaningful part of the water sustainability problem with going alfalfa in a desert. It's not. The unsustainable part of it is the other 3999 liters. 'Don't export alfalfa grown in a desert' optimizes the part that isn't important. 'Don't grow alfalfa in a desert' is what people actually need to be doing.
    - buffington 3y ago
      I am not making that mistake. Since I'm also involved in growing said alfalfa, I know very well how much water is used in merely growing it. That I didn't mention that in my reply isn't evidence that I'm making a huge mistake in thinking. In my opinion, exporting any amount of water is too much. Saying that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the other ways in which water could be better managed.
  - lokar 3y ago
    The issue is that the cheap water to grow feed is a social subsidy to the grower. If we are going to do it, the benefit should be local.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

Live in Phoenix, which as you know, does not have a lot of water. Alfa-alfa is grown here, packaged and shipped to Saudi-Arabia because it's cheaper this way than for Saudi-Arabia to desalinate water and grown their own stuff. Yet my water bill is going up by 6%.