4 ms·

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO aft

by lapcat 3y ago

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, because they've been burned out by their former employer.

vasco 3y ago
How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?
- shortrounddev2 3y ago
  Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting
  - Jensson 3y ago
    People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.
    - shortrounddev2 3y ago
      In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it
      - Jensson 3y ago
        But you can't form a union if they vote against it, which is why you are here arguing with people. So we here we have clear proof that even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want. Individual bargaining however seems to work very well, lots of people get what they want that way much faster and easier than any democratic process. And that is why people vote to not have unions. The moment developers have a cause they can agree on, they will start to vote for unions. And no it isn't too late at that point, rather it is too early to vote for a union unless you have a cause you collectively care about.
        shortrounddev2 3y ago
        > even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want Yes, this is how democracy works in general. You don't get everything (or necessarily anything) you want Personally the only thing that would really make me quit is if they tried to make me go hybrid or back to the office in any way. My workplace is small (10 engineers) and so unionizing based on that could be pretty easy, but it would be easier for me to quit and find a new job that does do remote
      - zaphar 3y ago
        You don't have to join but you usually still have to pay the dues. So you both have no vote on how that money get's spent but are also forced to give it to them anyway.
        dfxm12 3y ago
        You don't have to join but you usually still have to pay the dues. You are misinformed on the law. Free riders can't be compelled to pay dues.
        Jensson 3y ago
        > Free riders can't be compelled to pay dues. California, Washington and New York are forced union states, most developers don't work in right to work states.
      - fragmede 3y ago
        For better or worse, closed shop (where a company hires only union members) was outlawed in the US by the Taft–Hartley Act in 1947.
        Jensson 3y ago
        That law has a loophole: Force the worker to pay the union even if they don't join it. So unless you live in a right to work state that law doesn't mean much.
  - nordsieck 3y ago
    > Unions are democratic organizations In my experience, democratic organizations are complete garbage. Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best. I get that some democratic organizations are necessary. But adding more voluntarily seems to be at best a necessary evil, not something to list as a positive.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best. As far as I'm aware, most HOAs were imposed from above by the home builder rather than coming into existence via grassroots organization of the home owners.
- scottiebarnes 3y ago
  Yeah actually a union can help with all of those things. That's why police are unionized, as well as most team sport elite athletes (players unions). And they like the power it gives them, which is why you never hear them talk badly about it.
  - zaphar 3y ago
    While I personally think Police are necessary in a well functioning society, I will argue that Police unions are a large contributing factor behind the poor reputation Police have gotten lately. They have blocked much needed reforms, protected bad eggs, and are an argument for how a Union can force it's participants to support things they find morally repugnant.
  - vasco 3y ago
    I didn't ask If, I asked How, and I'd be surprised if you can find any examples.
    - scottiebarnes 3y ago
      You don't think unions negotiate work terms such as wages, working hours, conditions, etc.? What are some of the reasons you think a labor union would form in the first place? Have you ever heard of mandatory break requirements in certain industries? Think those ideas came from business owners? "The National Labor Union was founded on August 20, 1866, in Baltimore, Maryland. It was the first attempt to create a national labor group in the United States and one of their first actions was the first national call for Congress to mandate an 8-hour work day." https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/august/national-labor-union-8-hour-work-day https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/august...
    - woooooo 3y ago
      You're responding to a post that gave you examples. The mechanics are work contracts with a grievance process, if you're curious.
- mplewis 3y ago
  Yes, those are all things that your union can help negotiate on behalf of you and all your peers.
jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
A union will make it more difficult to be hired. You can see how difficult it is to get a job a western Europe due to "working conditions" requirements.
slibhb 3y ago
Great but for those of us who have better than adequate working conditions and enough money, please explain why we "deserve a union". Reading through this interview and thread, I notice how often this debate comes down to a sense of agency. You write about programmers being "burned out by their employer". But I would say that people experience burnout when they fail to set boundaries. Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit. It's interesting that the manager and/or employer has no apparent agency here.
  - zaphar 3y ago
    Sure they do. But their agency doesn't eliminate yours. You can't control what your employer does. You can control what you do. So the correct thing is to exercise your own agency in response to theirs.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > You can't control what your employer does. That's precisely the point of unions, though. Individually, you have no control over your employer, but via collective bargaining you do.
      - Jensson 3y ago
        So once the collective agrees they want something they will form a union to bargain collectively. But so far developers don't agree about anything so they don't, because the collective feels that they get enough from their individual contracts.
        3y ago
andsoitis 3y ago
> Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. Should these not just be regular labor law requirements?
- dfxm12 3y ago
  They aren't though. A lot of regular labor law requirements (hours, benefits, safety requirements, etc.) are in place today because of labor unions.
- ughitsaaron 3y ago
  Perhaps, but favorable labor legislation often depends on a robust organized labor movement, especially in the United States (where no labor party is present).
zaphar 3y ago
Right now if I don't like the working conditions I leave for a place that has better conditions. I've never had to take a long unpaid break because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. I've done exactly this multiple times. I think most people could do this. I don't know why more of them don't. If they did working conditions would be across the board better. I don't think burnout is caused by companies most of the time. It's caused by the employee not taking care of themself. Will a manager abuse someones willingness to not leverage the power they have? Sure. Some managers are awful. They'll continue to be awful when the Union is in place. Just in a different way. You'll still be miserable under that manager. The solution is to make a plan to leave and start executing on it. The moment you make the plan you'll feel better.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > I've never had to take a long unpaid break The reader is expecting you to say, "because I only work for employeers with good working conditions", but... > because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. Well, ok, but how old are you, and do you believe that this strategy of musical chairs will continue to work for the rest of your life? It's a marathon, not a sprint. > If they did working conditions would be across the board better. Why do you think so? How exactly is that going to happen? What's the incentive to improve working conditions when employees just leave quickly, on purpose? Again, you didn't even claim that your new jobs have good working conditions.
  - zaphar 3y ago
    It's not musical chairs. My average tenure is somewhere around 5 years. I've worked at companies for 7+ years without burning out or getting close to it. So yeah, I think it's a sustainable pace for quite a while. I'm also not a spring chicken anymore. I have 5 adult children. Why do you think so? How exactly is that going to happen? What's the incentive to improve working conditions when employees just leave quickly, on purpose? Again, you didn't even claim that your new jobs have good working conditions. Most of my jobs have had great working conditions. The few jobs that were short tenure were the ones that didn't. The incentive is that high turnover is harmful. Successful companies should look to keep people around for longer than a year. If they want to keep me for 5 or more then they'll have to provide an environment that I'll be willing to stick around for. There are companies that have done that and we have both benefited as a result. If enough people realize that they are valuable employees and treat their employer relationship that way I believe it can change the landscape. If you think it's hopeless and you aren't a valuable employee in the companies eye then that turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.

by lapcat 3y ago

vasco 3y ago

How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

shortrounddev2 3y ago
Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting
- Jensson 3y ago
  People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.
  - shortrounddev2 3y ago
    In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it
    - Jensson 3y ago
      But you can't form a union if they vote against it, which is why you are here arguing with people. So we here we have clear proof that even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want. Individual bargaining however seems to work very well, lots of people get what they want that way much faster and easier than any democratic process. And that is why people vote to not have unions. The moment developers have a cause they can agree on, they will start to vote for unions. And no it isn't too late at that point, rather it is too early to vote for a union unless you have a cause you collectively care about.
      - shortrounddev2 3y ago
        > even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want Yes, this is how democracy works in general. You don't get everything (or necessarily anything) you want Personally the only thing that would really make me quit is if they tried to make me go hybrid or back to the office in any way. My workplace is small (10 engineers) and so unionizing based on that could be pretty easy, but it would be easier for me to quit and find a new job that does do remote
    - zaphar 3y ago
      You don't have to join but you usually still have to pay the dues. So you both have no vote on how that money get's spent but are also forced to give it to them anyway.
      - dfxm12 3y ago
        You don't have to join but you usually still have to pay the dues. You are misinformed on the law. Free riders can't be compelled to pay dues.
        Jensson 3y ago
        > Free riders can't be compelled to pay dues. California, Washington and New York are forced union states, most developers don't work in right to work states.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      For better or worse, closed shop (where a company hires only union members) was outlawed in the US by the Taft–Hartley Act in 1947.
      - Jensson 3y ago
        That law has a loophole: Force the worker to pay the union even if they don't join it. So unless you live in a right to work state that law doesn't mean much.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > Unions are democratic organizations In my experience, democratic organizations are complete garbage. Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best. I get that some democratic organizations are necessary. But adding more voluntarily seems to be at best a necessary evil, not something to list as a positive.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best. As far as I'm aware, most HOAs were imposed from above by the home builder rather than coming into existence via grassroots organization of the home owners.
scottiebarnes 3y ago
Yeah actually a union can help with all of those things. That's why police are unionized, as well as most team sport elite athletes (players unions). And they like the power it gives them, which is why you never hear them talk badly about it.
- zaphar 3y ago
  While I personally think Police are necessary in a well functioning society, I will argue that Police unions are a large contributing factor behind the poor reputation Police have gotten lately. They have blocked much needed reforms, protected bad eggs, and are an argument for how a Union can force it's participants to support things they find morally repugnant.
- vasco 3y ago
  I didn't ask If, I asked How, and I'd be surprised if you can find any examples.
  - scottiebarnes 3y ago
    You don't think unions negotiate work terms such as wages, working hours, conditions, etc.? What are some of the reasons you think a labor union would form in the first place? Have you ever heard of mandatory break requirements in certain industries? Think those ideas came from business owners? "The National Labor Union was founded on August 20, 1866, in Baltimore, Maryland. It was the first attempt to create a national labor group in the United States and one of their first actions was the first national call for Congress to mandate an 8-hour work day." https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/august/national-labor-union-8-hour-work-day https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/august...
  - woooooo 3y ago
    You're responding to a post that gave you examples. The mechanics are work contracts with a grievance process, if you're curious.
mplewis 3y ago
Yes, those are all things that your union can help negotiate on behalf of you and all your peers.

jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago

A union will make it more difficult to be hired. You can see how difficult it is to get a job a western Europe due to "working conditions" requirements.

slibhb 3y ago

Great but for those of us who have better than adequate working conditions and enough money, please explain why we "deserve a union". Reading through this interview and thread, I notice how often this debate comes down to a sense of agency. You write about programmers being "burned out by their employer". But I would say that people experience burnout when they fail to set boundaries. Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit.

lapcat 3y ago
> Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit. It's interesting that the manager and/or employer has no apparent agency here.
- zaphar 3y ago
  Sure they do. But their agency doesn't eliminate yours. You can't control what your employer does. You can control what you do. So the correct thing is to exercise your own agency in response to theirs.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > You can't control what your employer does. That's precisely the point of unions, though. Individually, you have no control over your employer, but via collective bargaining you do.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      So once the collective agrees they want something they will form a union to bargain collectively. But so far developers don't agree about anything so they don't, because the collective feels that they get enough from their individual contracts.
      - 3y ago

andsoitis 3y ago

> Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. Should these not just be regular labor law requirements?

dfxm12 3y ago
They aren't though. A lot of regular labor law requirements (hours, benefits, safety requirements, etc.) are in place today because of labor unions.
ughitsaaron 3y ago
Perhaps, but favorable labor legislation often depends on a robust organized labor movement, especially in the United States (where no labor party is present).

zaphar 3y ago

Right now if I don't like the working conditions I leave for a place that has better conditions. I've never had to take a long unpaid break because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. I've done exactly this multiple times. I think most people could do this. I don't know why more of them don't. If they did working conditions would be across the board better. I don't think burnout is caused by companies most of the time. It's caused by the employee not taking care of themself. Will a manager abuse someones willingness to not leverage the power they have? Sure. Some managers are awful. They'll continue to be awful when the Union is in place. Just in a different way. You'll still be miserable under that manager. The solution is to make a plan to leave and start executing on it. The moment you make the plan you'll feel better.

lapcat 3y ago
> I've never had to take a long unpaid break The reader is expecting you to say, "because I only work for employeers with good working conditions", but... > because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. Well, ok, but how old are you, and do you believe that this strategy of musical chairs will continue to work for the rest of your life? It's a marathon, not a sprint. > If they did working conditions would be across the board better. Why do you think so? How exactly is that going to happen? What's the incentive to improve working conditions when employees just leave quickly, on purpose? Again, you didn't even claim that your new jobs have good working conditions.
- zaphar 3y ago
  It's not musical chairs. My average tenure is somewhere around 5 years. I've worked at companies for 7+ years without burning out or getting close to it. So yeah, I think it's a sustainable pace for quite a while. I'm also not a spring chicken anymore. I have 5 adult children. Why do you think so? How exactly is that going to happen? What's the incentive to improve working conditions when employees just leave quickly, on purpose? Again, you didn't even claim that your new jobs have good working conditions. Most of my jobs have had great working conditions. The few jobs that were short tenure were the ones that didn't. The incentive is that high turnover is harmful. Successful companies should look to keep people around for longer than a year. If they want to keep me for 5 or more then they'll have to provide an environment that I'll be willing to stick around for. There are companies that have done that and we have both benefited as a result. If enough people realize that they are valuable employees and treat their employer relationship that way I believe it can change the landscape. If you think it's hopeless and you aren't a valuable employee in the companies eye then that turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.