4 ms·

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my

by zaphar 3y ago

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place for me. I don't think it's anyone's responsibility but mine to ensure that I can provide for my family. I have all the self-dignity I need to stand up for myself and my family. I have built the support structures I need to survive rocky periods. None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. So yes, I think a certain amount of self-responsibility and self-reliance is good for you. I don't buy into the idea the most important dynamic is relative power between employees who may or may not share my values and an employer. Instead I buy into the idea that self-respect, self-reliance and community support structur is far more important and I would rather focus on that than trying to balance the power dynamic at a particular workplace.

pjc50 3y ago
> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. "Disabled workers do not exist"
- vasco 3y ago
  You could argue for disability protections instead of unions if that's your true position. Arguing for a .01% case to make a 100% rule is disingenuous.
afavour 3y ago
> community support structure ...what do you think a union is? I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.
- zaphar 3y ago
  I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.
  - afavour 3y ago
    Of course you do, you can choose to not take a job with an attached union you don't like. As you said, there are plenty of opportunities out there!
    - zaphar 3y ago
      You are correct! But we are discussing why I personally would vote against one at an employer. It would take an otherwise reasonable and enjoyable employer and turn them into a place I no longer want to work.
  - M2Ys4U 3y ago
    >I don't get to pick unions. >Unions are not voluntary Not all of my colleagues are in a union, and some of those that are are in a different union to me (albeit a minority of them). It works.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      It doesn't work like that in USA, union laws are different in different countries.
      - reaperman 3y ago
        Some major cities have multiple overlapping electricians unions. I've been on job sites where different unions are working on top of each-other.
fragmede 3y ago
> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. Yes it is. It's important to look for the privileges you were born into that allowed you to get to where you are now. Because not everyone starts at the same starting line. It's great that you have such a strong work ethic and are so self reliant but life comes at you fast, and sometimes you need some outside help. Illness, accidents, family emergencies, wildfires/tornadoes/hurricanes/earthquakes/etc; those things happen and you need help, whether its from the government or from your employer or your church or church-equivalent. It's great that you've got such a good relationship with your employer. But there are others that don't have that same relationship, and are being exploited and are being treated unfairly by their employer. Thanks to the US' H1-B system, they may not have the luxury of quitting under those circumstances like you do. Not everyone has access to the same community support structure as you do. It's great that you have one! But for those that don't, their workplace can be a lifeline. Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well?
- zaphar 3y ago
  If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? I would stand in his way with my own fists. You say I have privilege which I suppose I do. I have it because I worked on myself to get them and stood up for myself when I needed to. I have no college degree. I grew up poor. I think perhaps one of the greatest injustices you can do to someone is tell them they are stuck with no recourse and have no leverage they can exercise. I think that's a lie that imprisons people in circumstances they don't need to be stuck in.
  - supertimor 3y ago
    >Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well? > I would stand in his way with my own fists. Ok, but that’s what unionizing is. Standing up to your employer to stop rampant abuse to you and your fellow coworkers.

by zaphar 3y ago

pjc50 3y ago

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. "Disabled workers do not exist"

vasco 3y ago
You could argue for disability protections instead of unions if that's your true position. Arguing for a .01% case to make a 100% rule is disingenuous.

afavour 3y ago

> community support structure ...what do you think a union is? I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.

zaphar 3y ago
I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.
- afavour 3y ago
  Of course you do, you can choose to not take a job with an attached union you don't like. As you said, there are plenty of opportunities out there!
  - zaphar 3y ago
    You are correct! But we are discussing why I personally would vote against one at an employer. It would take an otherwise reasonable and enjoyable employer and turn them into a place I no longer want to work.
- M2Ys4U 3y ago
  >I don't get to pick unions. >Unions are not voluntary Not all of my colleagues are in a union, and some of those that are are in a different union to me (albeit a minority of them). It works.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    It doesn't work like that in USA, union laws are different in different countries.
    - reaperman 3y ago
      Some major cities have multiple overlapping electricians unions. I've been on job sites where different unions are working on top of each-other.

fragmede 3y ago

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. Yes it is. It's important to look for the privileges you were born into that allowed you to get to where you are now. Because not everyone starts at the same starting line. It's great that you have such a strong work ethic and are so self reliant but life comes at you fast, and sometimes you need some outside help. Illness, accidents, family emergencies, wildfires/tornadoes/hurricanes/earthquakes/etc; those things happen and you need help, whether its from the government or from your employer or your church or church-equivalent. It's great that you've got such a good relationship with your employer. But there are others that don't have that same relationship, and are being exploited and are being treated unfairly by their employer. Thanks to the US' H1-B system, they may not have the luxury of quitting under those circumstances like you do. Not everyone has access to the same community support structure as you do. It's great that you have one! But for those that don't, their workplace can be a lifeline. Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well?

zaphar 3y ago
If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? I would stand in his way with my own fists. You say I have privilege which I suppose I do. I have it because I worked on myself to get them and stood up for myself when I needed to. I have no college degree. I grew up poor. I think perhaps one of the greatest injustices you can do to someone is tell them they are stuck with no recourse and have no leverage they can exercise. I think that's a lie that imprisons people in circumstances they don't need to be stuck in.
- supertimor 3y ago
  >Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well? > I would stand in his way with my own fists. Ok, but that’s what unionizing is. Standing up to your employer to stop rampant abuse to you and your fellow coworkers.