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IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that wil

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unionization could help us do a better job of collectively saying "no" to awful product demands.

marcinzm 3y ago
Your civil engineer would also end up in jail or bared from working in the area if they made a mistake and has pretty strict criteria for becoming a civil engineer.
tourmalinetaco 3y ago
This sounds like more of an argument for a software safety commission than for a union.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
A whole lot of software just supports a business, and a non-critical business at that. If my buggy software takes down, say, pets.com, well, first, the world won't end because pets.com is down for 8 hours, and second, pets.com wasn't going to succeed even if my software was perfect. That kind of software isn't like building a bridge; it's more like building a birdhouse. Nobody's going to die if it collapses. (OK, a bird might.) Some software is critical. Safety critical, or running critical financial processes, handling medical info, and so on. That software does have technical standards.
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  Sure, but if pets.com has a database breach and leaks PII, that could be used to help break into someone's email or bank. I think a more apt analogy would be a pothole. It's probably OK, until it grows deep enough that someone hits it hard and veers into the sidewalk or the opposite lane.
- yunwal 3y ago
  The real pets.com (petsmart) stores credit card data. As do many other “non-critical” sites.
paulcole 3y ago
Yeah great point. It’s like why does my doctor have to wash their hands before operating on me but my CPA doesn’t have to wash their hands before doing my taxes?
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  Cute analogy dude, but it's startling that you think that the negative impact of software engineers is as contained as a CPA typing on their keyboard with dirty hands. Equifax leaked PII for over one third of the entire US. The stress and financial loss of identity theft can take years off of people's lives. That's just the big example, but there are countless other smaller examples of bad security and other bugs harming people in tangible ways.
cmiles74 3y ago
Healthcare is pretty reliant on software, that's an area that strikes me as being susceptible to something like this. Banks and their associated (i.e. Equifax) are also in a position where this kind of feedback from developers could make a difference.

marcinzm 3y ago

Your civil engineer would also end up in jail or bared from working in the area if they made a mistake and has pretty strict criteria for becoming a civil engineer.

tourmalinetaco 3y ago

This sounds like more of an argument for a software safety commission than for a union.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

A whole lot of software just supports a business, and a non-critical business at that. If my buggy software takes down, say, pets.com, well, first, the world won't end because pets.com is down for 8 hours, and second, pets.com wasn't going to succeed even if my software was perfect. That kind of software isn't like building a bridge; it's more like building a birdhouse. Nobody's going to die if it collapses. (OK, a bird might.) Some software is critical. Safety critical, or running critical financial processes, handling medical info, and so on. That software does have technical standards.

kdmccormick 3y ago
Sure, but if pets.com has a database breach and leaks PII, that could be used to help break into someone's email or bank. I think a more apt analogy would be a pothole. It's probably OK, until it grows deep enough that someone hits it hard and veers into the sidewalk or the opposite lane.
yunwal 3y ago
The real pets.com (petsmart) stores credit card data. As do many other “non-critical” sites.

paulcole 3y ago

Yeah great point. It’s like why does my doctor have to wash their hands before operating on me but my CPA doesn’t have to wash their hands before doing my taxes?

kdmccormick 3y ago
Cute analogy dude, but it's startling that you think that the negative impact of software engineers is as contained as a CPA typing on their keyboard with dirty hands. Equifax leaked PII for over one third of the entire US. The stress and financial loss of identity theft can take years off of people's lives. That's just the big example, but there are countless other smaller examples of bad security and other bugs harming people in tangible ways.

cmiles74 3y ago

Healthcare is pretty reliant on software, that's an area that strikes me as being susceptible to something like this. Banks and their associated (i.e. Equifax) are also in a position where this kind of feedback from developers could make a difference.