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Solar energy plants in the desert, including the transmission lines needed to get it to where it's usable, come at a cost to the ecosystems they disrupt. We te

Solar energy plants in the desert, including the transmission lines needed to get it to where it's usable, come at a cost to the ecosystems they disrupt. We tend to think of the desert as a lifeless wasteland, but that's far from the truth. Visit Death Valley National Park for example and see the marvelous diversity and beauty of life there, especially during a superbloom. Solar power plants in the Mojave desert threaten wildlife like the Desert Tortoise by reducing their natural range and plowing over the desert habitat. Rooftop, parking lot, etc. solar makes much better sense by utilizing already disturbed land nearer to where the power will be used thereby reducing transmission costs and the treat to biodiversity. A major downside (from one perspective) would be that rooftop solar installers out-compete the developers of desert power plants.

VHRanger 3y ago
Rooftop solar is more expensive than people think. You need to attach the solar panel to the roof, and roofs really, really want to leak. You also need to change all of this every 15-25 years when the roof needs a new cover.
- stvltvs 3y ago
  Granted the are costs that are often overlooked but that can also be mitigated by choosing installers with a good track record and offer a good warranty on their work, not whoever shows up on your doorstep, and by investing in better roofing materials. The solar panels should still be productive after 25-30 years even if they're less efficient, and they should have paid for themselves by then. If you're like me, at installation time, the roof was overdue for maintenance anyway.
  - solardev 3y ago
    It's very unlikely for a solar company, whether an installer or manufacturer, to last 25 or 30 years. I worked in equipment sales and our suppliers would routinely go out of business or be on the verge of bankruptcy. We'd advertise warranty insurance and reinsurance because it was assumed that the company wouldn't be there that long from now. If you just have modules (the panels themselves) on the roof that long you'd probably be okay, but if you have microinverters or power optimizers under them, those power electronics have a finite lifespan and will eventually die. Or if a single module wired in series goes bad, you'd still have roof work to do. It's not just install and forget. It's install and pray you don't have to do too much work too soon... (Edit: Ideally, these systems would pay for themselves in a few years. As long as that happens before they die, you'd still come out ahead. But that's not always the case. My last company got sued because the stuff we made kept failing -- it was in the news, so no company secrets there. One of our major installers also went bankrupt. Depending on who you ask, our equipment may or may not have been at fault.)
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Yeah, this is one of the worst aspects of residential solar, IMO. Workmanship and labor warranties are fragile at best, and the cost to do seemingly basic things is not insignificant. Lose a couple of panels near the middle of an array due to a power optimizer after a few years and you might end up debating whether it is even worth fixing it. That isn't so bad in itself, but it also might completely mess up your financial return estimates.
      - solardev 3y ago
        Yeah. One of the companies I worked for actually sold mostly to the DIY crowd, and I've done a few installs myself. It's not very hard -- most of it just plug and play, and even the roof entry points can be easy if you have the right flashings. (You would need an electrician to do the final approval and connection in many jurisdictions, though.) That is to say, it might not be a bad idea to pick up a few spares when you buy a system, and learn to replace broken modules or power electronics on the roof yourself if you need to and the company no longer exists. Just a thought.
        CMCDragonkai 3y ago
        Where would one learn this knowledge without joining the trade?
        solardev 3y ago
        Glad you asked! There's a few ways I know... mix and match as you see fit! 1) 4-6 hours, free: Volunteer with Grid Alternatives (https://gridalternatives.org/get-involved/volunteer https://gridalternatives.org/get-involved/volunteer), a nationwide (well, several states) nonprofit that donates and installs surplus solar for needy families. You get hands-on installation experience with a crew. 2) 2-3 hours, free: Self-study materials online like this guide from my former employer: https://unboundsolar.com/blog/step-by-step-diy-solar-installation https://unboundsolar.com/blog/step-by-step-diy-solar-install... (I didn't write this, and the company changed owners after I left... not sure how it is these days) or if you prefer a community wiki: https://www.appropedia.org/How_to_install_a_photovoltaic_system https://www.appropedia.org/How_to_install_a_photovoltaic_sys... . And of course these days there's probably a bunch of stuff on YouTube too. 3) 18-40 hours, few hundred dollars: A NABCEP prep course (https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/exam-courses https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/exam-courses) is probably the best way short of an apprenticeship to learn to do this the right way. The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners gives (optional but thorough and helpful) solar installation and design certifications. Anyone can take the courses, even if you don't want to get the cert. (I did that just for my own knowledge, while working as a web dev for a solar company). Make sure whichever class you take has a mix of both theory and hands-on practice with real equipment. 4) A few months, more expensive: See if your local university or community college has cheap or auditable (drop in for no credit) courses you can take. Mine had environmental engineering and sustainability courses that included hands-on solar design and installs. Please note that whatever you choose, in most areas it will NOT be legal to finish your install without an electrician (assuming a grid-tied system connected to your local power utility, vs a standalone battery-backed up off-grid system). You can do most of the work yourself though (great excuse for a pizza party on the roof with friends) but don't actually hook it up / turn it on without a proper permit and electrician inspection. Still, this saves a bunch of money over a fully professional install, and this way you also intimately know the equipment and labor standards better. Edit: Oh, by the way, some solar resellers (like my former employer above) will help you design the equipment and sell it/ship it to you direct, making it that much easier (you don't have to worry about all the electrical details as much, unless you like that sort of thing... you just have to install what they give you). I think these days there are also some online design sites (OpenSolar, Helioscope, Aurora, SolarEdge, etc.), but I think those are tailored towards industry professionals and not homeowners. Still, they might be helpful if you want to sign up and play around with a mock roof layout with real equipment connections.
TorKlingberg 3y ago
Climate change also disrupt ecosystems. Tradeoffs have to be made, and blocking everything doesn't mean things stay the way they are. It means continued CO2 emissions, higher energy costs and housing shortage. Rooftop solar, while a good thing, is more expensive to install and not enough to replace fossil fuels.
- stvltvs 3y ago
  For what it's worth, I agree that trade offs need to be made, like lithium mining and nuclear power. Desert solar plants looks like a painless win on the surface, but they don't hold up to scrutiny.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Rooftop, parking lot, etc. solar makes much better sense by utilizing already disturbed land Citizens For Responsible Solar is a front used by fossil fuel companies to block solar farms and they object to every single solar farm claiming it should be on the roof. They object to rooftop solar and claim it should be on another roof, etc. Land use by solar is not a primary concern, there is more land wasted on gold courses than would be required to power the country.
- stvltvs 3y ago
  This objection is shared by many local environmental groups, not just bad faith astroturfers. https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-solar-project-near-las-vegas-faces/ https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-...
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
You're being downvoted as it sounds like a concern troll, similar to wind turbines and birds but... There is actually less and less reason to site solar in deserts. As solar has dropped in price, lots of things we used to do to optimise the expensive solar no longer make sense. We used to build trackers that would point the cells directly at the sun all day, now that extra complexity can be replaced with just buying more panels. Similarly, long transmission lines out to deserts can be replaced by more solar spread everywhere that we need it. But to close, I want to reiterate that if you're reading some article about solar panels destroying the desert it's almost certainly bad-faith bullshit, so don't worry too much about it.
- stvltvs 3y ago
  There are people making bad faith arguments for sure, but they're piggybacking on the real concerns of local environmental groups. https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-solar-project-near-las-vegas-faces/ https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-...

VHRanger 3y ago

Rooftop solar is more expensive than people think. You need to attach the solar panel to the roof, and roofs really, really want to leak. You also need to change all of this every 15-25 years when the roof needs a new cover.

stvltvs 3y ago
Granted the are costs that are often overlooked but that can also be mitigated by choosing installers with a good track record and offer a good warranty on their work, not whoever shows up on your doorstep, and by investing in better roofing materials. The solar panels should still be productive after 25-30 years even if they're less efficient, and they should have paid for themselves by then. If you're like me, at installation time, the roof was overdue for maintenance anyway.
- solardev 3y ago
  It's very unlikely for a solar company, whether an installer or manufacturer, to last 25 or 30 years. I worked in equipment sales and our suppliers would routinely go out of business or be on the verge of bankruptcy. We'd advertise warranty insurance and reinsurance because it was assumed that the company wouldn't be there that long from now. If you just have modules (the panels themselves) on the roof that long you'd probably be okay, but if you have microinverters or power optimizers under them, those power electronics have a finite lifespan and will eventually die. Or if a single module wired in series goes bad, you'd still have roof work to do. It's not just install and forget. It's install and pray you don't have to do too much work too soon... (Edit: Ideally, these systems would pay for themselves in a few years. As long as that happens before they die, you'd still come out ahead. But that's not always the case. My last company got sued because the stuff we made kept failing -- it was in the news, so no company secrets there. One of our major installers also went bankrupt. Depending on who you ask, our equipment may or may not have been at fault.)
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Yeah, this is one of the worst aspects of residential solar, IMO. Workmanship and labor warranties are fragile at best, and the cost to do seemingly basic things is not insignificant. Lose a couple of panels near the middle of an array due to a power optimizer after a few years and you might end up debating whether it is even worth fixing it. That isn't so bad in itself, but it also might completely mess up your financial return estimates.
    - solardev 3y ago
      Yeah. One of the companies I worked for actually sold mostly to the DIY crowd, and I've done a few installs myself. It's not very hard -- most of it just plug and play, and even the roof entry points can be easy if you have the right flashings. (You would need an electrician to do the final approval and connection in many jurisdictions, though.) That is to say, it might not be a bad idea to pick up a few spares when you buy a system, and learn to replace broken modules or power electronics on the roof yourself if you need to and the company no longer exists. Just a thought.
      - CMCDragonkai 3y ago
        Where would one learn this knowledge without joining the trade?
        solardev 3y ago
        Glad you asked! There's a few ways I know... mix and match as you see fit! 1) 4-6 hours, free: Volunteer with Grid Alternatives (https://gridalternatives.org/get-involved/volunteer https://gridalternatives.org/get-involved/volunteer), a nationwide (well, several states) nonprofit that donates and installs surplus solar for needy families. You get hands-on installation experience with a crew. 2) 2-3 hours, free: Self-study materials online like this guide from my former employer: https://unboundsolar.com/blog/step-by-step-diy-solar-installation https://unboundsolar.com/blog/step-by-step-diy-solar-install... (I didn't write this, and the company changed owners after I left... not sure how it is these days) or if you prefer a community wiki: https://www.appropedia.org/How_to_install_a_photovoltaic_system https://www.appropedia.org/How_to_install_a_photovoltaic_sys... . And of course these days there's probably a bunch of stuff on YouTube too. 3) 18-40 hours, few hundred dollars: A NABCEP prep course (https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/exam-courses https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/exam-courses) is probably the best way short of an apprenticeship to learn to do this the right way. The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners gives (optional but thorough and helpful) solar installation and design certifications. Anyone can take the courses, even if you don't want to get the cert. (I did that just for my own knowledge, while working as a web dev for a solar company). Make sure whichever class you take has a mix of both theory and hands-on practice with real equipment. 4) A few months, more expensive: See if your local university or community college has cheap or auditable (drop in for no credit) courses you can take. Mine had environmental engineering and sustainability courses that included hands-on solar design and installs. Please note that whatever you choose, in most areas it will NOT be legal to finish your install without an electrician (assuming a grid-tied system connected to your local power utility, vs a standalone battery-backed up off-grid system). You can do most of the work yourself though (great excuse for a pizza party on the roof with friends) but don't actually hook it up / turn it on without a proper permit and electrician inspection. Still, this saves a bunch of money over a fully professional install, and this way you also intimately know the equipment and labor standards better. Edit: Oh, by the way, some solar resellers (like my former employer above) will help you design the equipment and sell it/ship it to you direct, making it that much easier (you don't have to worry about all the electrical details as much, unless you like that sort of thing... you just have to install what they give you). I think these days there are also some online design sites (OpenSolar, Helioscope, Aurora, SolarEdge, etc.), but I think those are tailored towards industry professionals and not homeowners. Still, they might be helpful if you want to sign up and play around with a mock roof layout with real equipment connections.

TorKlingberg 3y ago

Climate change also disrupt ecosystems. Tradeoffs have to be made, and blocking everything doesn't mean things stay the way they are. It means continued CO2 emissions, higher energy costs and housing shortage. Rooftop solar, while a good thing, is more expensive to install and not enough to replace fossil fuels.

stvltvs 3y ago
For what it's worth, I agree that trade offs need to be made, like lithium mining and nuclear power. Desert solar plants looks like a painless win on the surface, but they don't hold up to scrutiny.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> Rooftop, parking lot, etc. solar makes much better sense by utilizing already disturbed land Citizens For Responsible Solar is a front used by fossil fuel companies to block solar farms and they object to every single solar farm claiming it should be on the roof. They object to rooftop solar and claim it should be on another roof, etc. Land use by solar is not a primary concern, there is more land wasted on gold courses than would be required to power the country.

stvltvs 3y ago
This objection is shared by many local environmental groups, not just bad faith astroturfers. https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-solar-project-near-las-vegas-faces/ https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-...

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

You're being downvoted as it sounds like a concern troll, similar to wind turbines and birds but... There is actually less and less reason to site solar in deserts. As solar has dropped in price, lots of things we used to do to optimise the expensive solar no longer make sense. We used to build trackers that would point the cells directly at the sun all day, now that extra complexity can be replaced with just buying more panels. Similarly, long transmission lines out to deserts can be replaced by more solar spread everywhere that we need it. But to close, I want to reiterate that if you're reading some article about solar panels destroying the desert it's almost certainly bad-faith bullshit, so don't worry too much about it.

stvltvs 3y ago
There are people making bad faith arguments for sure, but they're piggybacking on the real concerns of local environmental groups. https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-solar-project-near-las-vegas-faces/ https://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2019/jun/18/massive-gemini-...