7 ms·

Long story short: There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. Progressive Web Apps on the other hard are actively r

Long story short: There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. Progressive Web Apps on the other hard are actively restricted by the browser sandbox and are ganerally a preferred solution from a privacy perspective. https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps/ https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps/

shmde 3y ago
> There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. What if I use something like AdGuard to block reqs ?
- pdimitar 3y ago
  The only reason stuff like PiHole / AdGuard DNS and many others work is because the service vendors have not bothered unifying ALL the network requests their service needs under a single domain. The one and only reason we can use those privacy-enhancing solutions is because the vendors are sloppy. The moment your favorite app starts using only `your-fav-app.com` domain for everything, ads and sending out your private info included, you are toast and you'll need a MITM proxy or any other on-device-network-payload-inspector-after-decryption-has-taken-place to save yourself. (So maybe Adguard's client app, I presume? But haven't ever tried.) Maybe Privaxy[0] will help -- haven't tried it yet and I got no time and energy for it for the moment, sadly, but DNS-level blocking in particular is just waiting for a few more resourceful vendors to do the right thing for their interests, and we're disarmed. [0] https://github.com/barre/privaxy https://github.com/barre/privaxy
  - ignoramous 3y ago
    > The moment your favorite app starts using only `your-fav-app.com` domain for everything Not just that, services could end up using the same IP across providers: https://blog.cloudflare.com/addressing-agility/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/addressing-agility/
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  Your data can easily be sent to an IP collection point that is not on AdGuard's list. DNS blockers are better than nothing --- which is a pretty low bar and easy to jump over.
jiofj 3y ago
>Lomg story short: There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. "all your data"? What data exactly? My contact list? My gallery?
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  They can pretty much pick and choose unless the data is encrypted --- and most of it is not. https://www.xda-developers.com/android-permissions-bypass-play-store-apps/ https://www.xda-developers.com/android-permissions-bypass-pl...
  - milosmns 3y ago
    That research was conducted on the 2018 version of the OS, and also at a time when Google Play's distribution agreement was much more relaxed (close to zero app checks). As far as I know, most (if not all) of the concerns shared have been addressed in the following 2 years, so I would assume that this is not an issue anymore in 2023 - or at least not as severe. I believe that new loopholes exist, but this one seems outdated to me.
  - NavinF 3y ago
    The data described in that article (Eg MAC Address) has virtually zero overlap with the kind of data GP mentioned (contact list, gallery). Most people only care about the latter. btw "The researchers discovered that the Shutterfly app was accessing the location tags of photos' EXIF metadata. All that's required is the READ_EXTERNAL_STORAGE permission" sounds ridiculous. If you grant permission to read entire files, of course the app can read metadata.
tannhaeuser 3y ago
Except the only difference is that PWAs in Chrome's "sandbox" just collect data for Google, and Google alone. Do you believe they do it for the greater good? [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-opposed-ad-platform-the-privacy-sandbox-launches-in-chrome/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-oppos...
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  This is why I don't use default Chrome or stock Androud. They're both apps from a known privacy invader. But even if you do, these are restricted from wholesale collection of data like your contacts by marketplace and public relations pressures and concerns that smaller junk app vendors don't have.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    What _do_ you run then?
    - jqpabc123 3y ago
      e/OS and Brave browser. I generally avoid Google's Play store and install most apps from Aurora and F-Droid. Aurora provides a privacy report that you can review before installing an app.
      - _rdvw 3y ago
        Fun fact: Brave Browser on Android contains the proprietary Google Play Services library: https://divestos.org/images/Brave-GMS.png https://divestos.org/images/Brave-GMS.png I cover this in depth more here: https://divestos.org/pages/browsers https://divestos.org/pages/browsers
    - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
      Not OP, but I run GrapheneOS.
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
bandergirl 3y ago
> There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. Uhm, false? Unless by "all your data" refers to "what you do in the app" + IP address + phone model, on the iPhone nothing else is accessible by default. All that info is also available to any website you visit, so PWAs are not special in this regard.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  The easiest way for a bad actor to get access to personal data on iPhone or Android is to simply ask for it --- create a junk installed app with some quasi-plausible excuse for requesting it. There is no restriction on what can be done with the data once the request is granted. PWAs don't have this problem.
  - jkubicek 3y ago
    Granting a random app access to all your private data after they request access is very different than "There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data."
  - bandergirl 3y ago
    > PWAs don't have this problem. I think the only sensitive APIs not available in the browser are calendar and photo gallery access, but PWAs have otherwise access to Contacts, GeoLocation, Cameras, Microphone, Clipboard, and even the FileSystem. Maybe Android apps do suffer from the problem you’re describing, since permissions are granted lumped together at install time, but on iOS all permissions are optional just like in the browser.
cubesnooper 3y ago
GrapheneOS allows disabling network for a particular app, alongside the other permission settings. As a rule, I’ll give an app either file permissions or network permissions, but almost never both. A lot of apps are perfectly usable without file access by sharing a file to them from the file manager. GrapheneOS also has “Contact Scopes,” so you can grant an app contacts access (so it thinks) but it’s actually a subset or blank list of contacts. Another feature that’s commonly recommended is using multiple profiles. I often see people use this to run Google apps in an environment isolated from the rest of their data.
- pyaamb 3y ago
  I love this. I wish for these patterns to be available more widely.
- bogle 3y ago
  I recommend using a separate profile for apps you may want that require Google Services. GrapheneOS is perfect for this. My separate profile is called "Burner" which serves as a handy reminder to me that I may, at some point, wipe out the whole profile and every app therein.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    I have a separate "burner" phone for extreme cases like this. It contains no personal data. microG handles most of the routine access to Google services that I need.
- Springtime 3y ago
  > GrapheneOS allows disabling network for a particular app, alongside the other permission settings. This feature is also useful in LineageOS, as a kind of native firewall. Thankfully most open source apps on my device don't use network connectivity so the permission is greyed out to begin with.
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    In e/OS, this is called "Advanced Privacy".
gus_ 3y ago
with [0] you can disable network access by application. [0] https://github.com/TrackerControl/tracker-control-android https://github.com/TrackerControl/tracker-control-android

shmde 3y ago

> There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. What if I use something like AdGuard to block reqs ?

pdimitar 3y ago
The only reason stuff like PiHole / AdGuard DNS and many others work is because the service vendors have not bothered unifying ALL the network requests their service needs under a single domain. The one and only reason we can use those privacy-enhancing solutions is because the vendors are sloppy. The moment your favorite app starts using only `your-fav-app.com` domain for everything, ads and sending out your private info included, you are toast and you'll need a MITM proxy or any other on-device-network-payload-inspector-after-decryption-has-taken-place to save yourself. (So maybe Adguard's client app, I presume? But haven't ever tried.) Maybe Privaxy[0] will help -- haven't tried it yet and I got no time and energy for it for the moment, sadly, but DNS-level blocking in particular is just waiting for a few more resourceful vendors to do the right thing for their interests, and we're disarmed. [0] https://github.com/barre/privaxy https://github.com/barre/privaxy
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > The moment your favorite app starts using only `your-fav-app.com` domain for everything Not just that, services could end up using the same IP across providers: https://blog.cloudflare.com/addressing-agility/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/addressing-agility/
jqpabc123 3y ago
Your data can easily be sent to an IP collection point that is not on AdGuard's list. DNS blockers are better than nothing --- which is a pretty low bar and easy to jump over.

jiofj 3y ago

>Lomg story short: There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. "all your data"? What data exactly? My contact list? My gallery?

jqpabc123 3y ago
They can pretty much pick and choose unless the data is encrypted --- and most of it is not. https://www.xda-developers.com/android-permissions-bypass-play-store-apps/ https://www.xda-developers.com/android-permissions-bypass-pl...
- milosmns 3y ago
  That research was conducted on the 2018 version of the OS, and also at a time when Google Play's distribution agreement was much more relaxed (close to zero app checks). As far as I know, most (if not all) of the concerns shared have been addressed in the following 2 years, so I would assume that this is not an issue anymore in 2023 - or at least not as severe. I believe that new loopholes exist, but this one seems outdated to me.
- NavinF 3y ago
  The data described in that article (Eg MAC Address) has virtually zero overlap with the kind of data GP mentioned (contact list, gallery). Most people only care about the latter. btw "The researchers discovered that the Shutterfly app was accessing the location tags of photos' EXIF metadata. All that's required is the READ_EXTERNAL_STORAGE permission" sounds ridiculous. If you grant permission to read entire files, of course the app can read metadata.

tannhaeuser 3y ago

Except the only difference is that PWAs in Chrome's "sandbox" just collect data for Google, and Google alone. Do you believe they do it for the greater good? [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-opposed-ad-platform-the-privacy-sandbox-launches-in-chrome/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-oppos...

jqpabc123 3y ago
This is why I don't use default Chrome or stock Androud. They're both apps from a known privacy invader. But even if you do, these are restricted from wholesale collection of data like your contacts by marketplace and public relations pressures and concerns that smaller junk app vendors don't have.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  What _do_ you run then?
  - jqpabc123 3y ago
    e/OS and Brave browser. I generally avoid Google's Play store and install most apps from Aurora and F-Droid. Aurora provides a privacy report that you can review before installing an app.
    - _rdvw 3y ago
      Fun fact: Brave Browser on Android contains the proprietary Google Play Services library: https://divestos.org/images/Brave-GMS.png https://divestos.org/images/Brave-GMS.png I cover this in depth more here: https://divestos.org/pages/browsers https://divestos.org/pages/browsers
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    Not OP, but I run GrapheneOS.
jkaplowitz 3y ago

bandergirl 3y ago

> There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data. Uhm, false? Unless by "all your data" refers to "what you do in the app" + IP address + phone model, on the iPhone nothing else is accessible by default. All that info is also available to any website you visit, so PWAs are not special in this regard.

jqpabc123 3y ago
The easiest way for a bad actor to get access to personal data on iPhone or Android is to simply ask for it --- create a junk installed app with some quasi-plausible excuse for requesting it. There is no restriction on what can be done with the data once the request is granted. PWAs don't have this problem.
- jkubicek 3y ago
  Granting a random app access to all your private data after they request access is very different than "There is nothing that actually prevents an installed app from collecting all your data."
- bandergirl 3y ago
  > PWAs don't have this problem. I think the only sensitive APIs not available in the browser are calendar and photo gallery access, but PWAs have otherwise access to Contacts, GeoLocation, Cameras, Microphone, Clipboard, and even the FileSystem. Maybe Android apps do suffer from the problem you’re describing, since permissions are granted lumped together at install time, but on iOS all permissions are optional just like in the browser.

cubesnooper 3y ago

GrapheneOS allows disabling network for a particular app, alongside the other permission settings. As a rule, I’ll give an app either file permissions or network permissions, but almost never both. A lot of apps are perfectly usable without file access by sharing a file to them from the file manager. GrapheneOS also has “Contact Scopes,” so you can grant an app contacts access (so it thinks) but it’s actually a subset or blank list of contacts. Another feature that’s commonly recommended is using multiple profiles. I often see people use this to run Google apps in an environment isolated from the rest of their data.

pyaamb 3y ago
I love this. I wish for these patterns to be available more widely.
bogle 3y ago
I recommend using a separate profile for apps you may want that require Google Services. GrapheneOS is perfect for this. My separate profile is called "Burner" which serves as a handy reminder to me that I may, at some point, wipe out the whole profile and every app therein.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  I have a separate "burner" phone for extreme cases like this. It contains no personal data. microG handles most of the routine access to Google services that I need.
Springtime 3y ago
> GrapheneOS allows disabling network for a particular app, alongside the other permission settings. This feature is also useful in LineageOS, as a kind of native firewall. Thankfully most open source apps on my device don't use network connectivity so the permission is greyed out to begin with.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  In e/OS, this is called "Advanced Privacy".

gus_ 3y ago

with [0] you can disable network access by application. [0] https://github.com/TrackerControl/tracker-control-android https://github.com/TrackerControl/tracker-control-android