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> I think you underestimate the revenge cycle that might occur if society wanted to be more lenient than life in prison, which was the result here. […] My gues

by tfourb 3y ago

> I think you underestimate the revenge cycle that might occur if society wanted to be more lenient than life in prison, which was the result here. […] My guess is you are writing from a U.S. point of view. You are severely underestimating how much of an outlier the U.S. is in terms of its justice system when compared to other democracies. Germany, not exactly known for its historical social cuddliness, for example doesn't even allow "life in prison" sentences. Our constitution guarantees the possibility for every convicted, no matter the crime, to regain their freedom. Even people convicted of multiple murders will get their first parole hearing after 15 years and while a court can order their detention beyond this, this is technically no longer a prison sentence and only allowable if there is a high likelihood that the person in question will cause additional harm if released. This assessment is checked every few years with the goal that no one will spend more time in prison than necessary. This approach to criminal justice enjoys broad support in Germany and most western European societies. All of these societies are also considerably more safe than the U.S. and many other places that put an explicit emphasis on retributive justice. I'm not aware of notable cases of revenge violence due to this. Retributive justice is an outdated philosophy that only sounds reasonable when you assume the worst in people and ignore the effects of the intergenerational trauma that it produces.

Natsu 3y ago
The problem with that is that when you have a situation where the punishment is known to be lenient and there's someone threatening your life, you might just be willing to pay the price for revenge. Yes, I'm aware that some places don't do life in prison or such. I'm pointing out the harms of that.
- tfourb 3y ago
  What you are describing is the plot of a Liam Neeson action flick, and not how real life works. Revenge killings are not a thing or you’d read about them in societies with “lenient” punishments. And if someone threatens your life in the moment you are entitled to reasonable measures of self defense, including killing the attacker if you can not avoid harm to yourself or others in another way, that is a completely separate issue.
  - Natsu 3y ago
    It's weird to see you flip things like that, when you're the one talking with no actual experience with these things. Anyhow, I certainly have read about them and they have been common throughout history, with justice systems being created to displace such revenge cycles. I can't help if you're not aware of even thing like the Hatfields & the McCoys, but I can push back when people want to head us back to the bad old days.
    - tfourb 3y ago
      Jesus, I was talking about societies with modern justice systems focused on rehabilitation, not civil-war era wild west. Yes, of course absent a functioning justice system revenge cycles will occur. But the whole argument in this thread is about the relative merits of rehabilitation vs. punishment in modern society. And on that front the evidence on the outcome is pretty solid: Punishment-focused justice systems (like in the U.S.) result in more people in prison, are more costly and correlate with higher crime rates (not sure about the current evidence on causality, but I think it is pretty obvious that the trauma and stigma associated with a punishment-leaning justice system would tend to lead to more crime). Studies quite consistently show that increasing the punishment for a given crime does not reduce the rate it is committed at, all other things being equal. Because guess what, criminals are either unaware that they are committing a crime/are committing a crime in a moment of passion (in which case the punishment is of no consequence) or they think that they won't be caught. Which is one of the many reasons the death penalty is so stupid. Catching criminals and bringing the to trial quickly is much more relevant than the severity of the punishment and the concept of rehabilitation is an extension of that: You find criminals quickly, you sentence them quickly and you invest in them leaving the justice system as quickly as possible to become productive members of society again. Why would I want to spend hundreds of thousands of Dollars on keeping someone behind bars for the rest of their life when I can also try spending a fraction of that on cognitive therapy, apprenticeships and social work to get them out of prison and into a stable life situation in which they have a decent chance of not committing a crime again?
      - Natsu 3y ago

by tfourb 3y ago

Natsu 3y ago

The problem with that is that when you have a situation where the punishment is known to be lenient and there's someone threatening your life, you might just be willing to pay the price for revenge. Yes, I'm aware that some places don't do life in prison or such. I'm pointing out the harms of that.

tfourb 3y ago
What you are describing is the plot of a Liam Neeson action flick, and not how real life works. Revenge killings are not a thing or you’d read about them in societies with “lenient” punishments. And if someone threatens your life in the moment you are entitled to reasonable measures of self defense, including killing the attacker if you can not avoid harm to yourself or others in another way, that is a completely separate issue.
- Natsu 3y ago
  It's weird to see you flip things like that, when you're the one talking with no actual experience with these things. Anyhow, I certainly have read about them and they have been common throughout history, with justice systems being created to displace such revenge cycles. I can't help if you're not aware of even thing like the Hatfields & the McCoys, but I can push back when people want to head us back to the bad old days.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    Jesus, I was talking about societies with modern justice systems focused on rehabilitation, not civil-war era wild west. Yes, of course absent a functioning justice system revenge cycles will occur. But the whole argument in this thread is about the relative merits of rehabilitation vs. punishment in modern society. And on that front the evidence on the outcome is pretty solid: Punishment-focused justice systems (like in the U.S.) result in more people in prison, are more costly and correlate with higher crime rates (not sure about the current evidence on causality, but I think it is pretty obvious that the trauma and stigma associated with a punishment-leaning justice system would tend to lead to more crime). Studies quite consistently show that increasing the punishment for a given crime does not reduce the rate it is committed at, all other things being equal. Because guess what, criminals are either unaware that they are committing a crime/are committing a crime in a moment of passion (in which case the punishment is of no consequence) or they think that they won't be caught. Which is one of the many reasons the death penalty is so stupid. Catching criminals and bringing the to trial quickly is much more relevant than the severity of the punishment and the concept of rehabilitation is an extension of that: You find criminals quickly, you sentence them quickly and you invest in them leaving the justice system as quickly as possible to become productive members of society again. Why would I want to spend hundreds of thousands of Dollars on keeping someone behind bars for the rest of their life when I can also try spending a fraction of that on cognitive therapy, apprenticeships and social work to get them out of prison and into a stable life situation in which they have a decent chance of not committing a crime again?
    - Natsu 3y ago