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Right or wrong, it can be a really difficult thing to do when the problem behaviour is not due to malice. You’re taking away a community from someone, and in my

Right or wrong, it can be a really difficult thing to do when the problem behaviour is not due to malice. You’re taking away a community from someone, and in my experience, usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets. It does not feel good to get pleading emails from these sorts of folks, knowing that you have to stand firm and say ‘no’ for the health of the wider community.

cgriswald 3y ago
Sometimes these people need a hard truth. I’d say most times. They usually won’t “get it” in the moment, but the only way they can ever get it is if someone respects them enough to say it. These sorts of bans aren’t just good for the community. They’re also good for the recipient. (I’d only say that in the short term, depending on the person, there could be a danger of self harm and people should always be kind and careful.) It doesn’t feel good. But that pain you feel is you caring about that person. Understanding that makes it easier.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  "someone respects them enough to say it." "They’re also good for the recipient." I've never seen anyone learning anything from being permabanned from anywhere. This is just post-facto justification to make yourself feel better for removing those people - but don't believe it even for a second that you've helped them in any way. Helping the community? Could be. Helping the banned person? Hell no.
  - cgriswald 3y ago
    Is it your experience that the only party to benefit from ending a relationship is the one ending it?
    - Pannoniae 3y ago
      Correct
      - cgriswald 3y ago
        That’s a pretty singular experience.
        Pannoniae 3y ago
        All of us have a singular experience, I only shared mine because it wasn't matching with yours. What's wrong with it?^^
        cgriswald 3y ago
        To the degree that anything is 'wrong', it's your argument. You haven't experienced a thing even indirectly, therefore, you conclude, anyone else who claims to have experienced this thing must be lying (at least to themselves) to make themselves feel better about bad actions which harm others. This is just cynicism. Your argument also requires the hidden assumption that the person making the claim you disagree with (specifically me), was the person performing the action rather than the recipient of the action. While it is true I have ended relationships (including permabans), it was by being the recipient of such endings that I came by my knowledge so this assumption in a practical sense is false.
  - j5155 3y ago
    I was banned from a Discord server for reasons like these, and I found it really helpful for knowing for sure that I needed to change my behavior. I think it fundamentally comes down to the person; I have struggled with knowing how to “read the room” and when something is acceptable or not, and it was a very clear “it’s not” after the ban.
sublinear 3y ago
> usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets You can always push them to a misc channel and if the community really likes them they'll chat over there?
echelon 3y ago
This is the difference between banning in the aughts versus now. Banning used to come with a lot of consideration and sympathy. Often multiple attempts to outreach were made. In the social media era, not only do we ban without prejudice, we shadow ban (leaving them to think they're talking to people), ban on presumption (banning Redditors based on other subreddits they use), and take joy in shutting down those we disagree with (freedom of speech for me, not for thee). The new tactic on Reddit is to block someone when you disagree with them - this prevents them from ever interacting with any thread you post in, even the sibling posts. We love to silence people these days. I just wish it didn't come with a wide blast radius beyond peoples' own personal consumption.
- fireflash38 3y ago
  Nah, people were always ban happy, and often rude or ghosting. That hasn't changed one bit.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I find blocks are almost necessary for me to be able to stand to use Mastodon. There are a lot of decent people there and participating can feel really worthwhile to me but there are a lot of very angry people and even 1% of crazy angry toots can wreck my mood and I feel I wouldn’t want to participate otherwise. One kind of behavior I can’t stand is people who call other people “fascists” indiscriminately because they are comfortable in their own skin or think we should have a police department or because they are a landlord evicting a tenant who didn’t pay the rent, or whatever. Much of the time I agree or largely agree with them on a lot of issues but it’s the hate I can’t stand. So I am really quick to block on expressed hate, particularly when associated with certain issues that quickly get flagged on Hacker News as it seems many participants immediately resort to name calling against anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest or even expresses uncertainty on the issue. You could make the case that these people really deserve a correction and that, who knows, the way they are they are driving people away from their side and helping “the fascists” get elected (for any political activity I think you have to ask the question of “who does this really help?”). This behavior is self-reinforcing and unfortunately these people surround themselves with other people who do the same things and many of them respond quite hatefully when you call out their behavior so I’d be doing nothing but arguing with these people and getting exhausted… without the block button.
jiofj 3y ago
>You’re taking away a community from someone, and in my experience, usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets. This is not your problem.
denton-scratch 3y ago
> usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets A support forum is not a "social outlet".
- xethos 3y ago
  Depends how few people you interact with on a day-to-day basis
- naniwaduni 3y ago
  That only requires you to scrap the word "other" without really changing the underlying point...

cgriswald 3y ago

Sometimes these people need a hard truth. I’d say most times. They usually won’t “get it” in the moment, but the only way they can ever get it is if someone respects them enough to say it. These sorts of bans aren’t just good for the community. They’re also good for the recipient. (I’d only say that in the short term, depending on the person, there could be a danger of self harm and people should always be kind and careful.) It doesn’t feel good. But that pain you feel is you caring about that person. Understanding that makes it easier.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Pannoniae 3y ago
"someone respects them enough to say it." "They’re also good for the recipient." I've never seen anyone learning anything from being permabanned from anywhere. This is just post-facto justification to make yourself feel better for removing those people - but don't believe it even for a second that you've helped them in any way. Helping the community? Could be. Helping the banned person? Hell no.
- cgriswald 3y ago
  Is it your experience that the only party to benefit from ending a relationship is the one ending it?
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    Correct
    - cgriswald 3y ago
      That’s a pretty singular experience.
      - Pannoniae 3y ago
        All of us have a singular experience, I only shared mine because it wasn't matching with yours. What's wrong with it?^^
        cgriswald 3y ago
        To the degree that anything is 'wrong', it's your argument. You haven't experienced a thing even indirectly, therefore, you conclude, anyone else who claims to have experienced this thing must be lying (at least to themselves) to make themselves feel better about bad actions which harm others. This is just cynicism. Your argument also requires the hidden assumption that the person making the claim you disagree with (specifically me), was the person performing the action rather than the recipient of the action. While it is true I have ended relationships (including permabans), it was by being the recipient of such endings that I came by my knowledge so this assumption in a practical sense is false.
- j5155 3y ago
  I was banned from a Discord server for reasons like these, and I found it really helpful for knowing for sure that I needed to change my behavior. I think it fundamentally comes down to the person; I have struggled with knowing how to “read the room” and when something is acceptable or not, and it was a very clear “it’s not” after the ban.

sublinear 3y ago

> usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets You can always push them to a misc channel and if the community really likes them they'll chat over there?

echelon 3y ago

This is the difference between banning in the aughts versus now. Banning used to come with a lot of consideration and sympathy. Often multiple attempts to outreach were made. In the social media era, not only do we ban without prejudice, we shadow ban (leaving them to think they're talking to people), ban on presumption (banning Redditors based on other subreddits they use), and take joy in shutting down those we disagree with (freedom of speech for me, not for thee). The new tactic on Reddit is to block someone when you disagree with them - this prevents them from ever interacting with any thread you post in, even the sibling posts. We love to silence people these days. I just wish it didn't come with a wide blast radius beyond peoples' own personal consumption.

fireflash38 3y ago
Nah, people were always ban happy, and often rude or ghosting. That hasn't changed one bit.
PaulHoule 3y ago
I find blocks are almost necessary for me to be able to stand to use Mastodon. There are a lot of decent people there and participating can feel really worthwhile to me but there are a lot of very angry people and even 1% of crazy angry toots can wreck my mood and I feel I wouldn’t want to participate otherwise. One kind of behavior I can’t stand is people who call other people “fascists” indiscriminately because they are comfortable in their own skin or think we should have a police department or because they are a landlord evicting a tenant who didn’t pay the rent, or whatever. Much of the time I agree or largely agree with them on a lot of issues but it’s the hate I can’t stand. So I am really quick to block on expressed hate, particularly when associated with certain issues that quickly get flagged on Hacker News as it seems many participants immediately resort to name calling against anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest or even expresses uncertainty on the issue. You could make the case that these people really deserve a correction and that, who knows, the way they are they are driving people away from their side and helping “the fascists” get elected (for any political activity I think you have to ask the question of “who does this really help?”). This behavior is self-reinforcing and unfortunately these people surround themselves with other people who do the same things and many of them respond quite hatefully when you call out their behavior so I’d be doing nothing but arguing with these people and getting exhausted… without the block button.

jiofj 3y ago

>You’re taking away a community from someone, and in my experience, usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets. This is not your problem.

denton-scratch 3y ago

> usually it’s someone who doesn’t have many other social outlets A support forum is not a "social outlet".

xethos 3y ago
Depends how few people you interact with on a day-to-day basis
naniwaduni 3y ago
That only requires you to scrap the word "other" without really changing the underlying point...