5 ms·

This is where the mistaken reasoning is, they aren’t measuring or reporting on that naive correlation between B and C that you’re focusing on. They are saying

by mint2 3y ago

This is where the mistaken reasoning is, they aren’t measuring or reporting on that naive correlation between B and C that you’re focusing on. They are saying after backing out the correlation between A and B to get adjusted B, there is no correlation between C and adjusted B. That is an ELI5 explanation of their statement “controlled for” about the factors like severity. Yes their focus is not on how A and C relate, but we know that relation from other sources. That is what controlled for means. “Hello” means a greeting in English. It’s the definition. Same concept, it’s the meaning of controlled for. It’s what it was defined to mean.

taeric 3y ago
The quote they use is "We found no impact of vaccination status, viral variant, age, sex, or presence of co-morbidities." Specifically, in the section "Exhaled SARS-CoV-2 RNA levels increased with self-reported symptom severity," they say that they found folks with reported severe symptoms were higher than the others. However, it is worded and presented such that really only "severe" was higher. Indeed, figure 3c shows that vaccinated individuals have similar spikes as otherwise. (The CI is actually higher and wider on the chart for vaccinated?) That chart also highlights that people reporting "none" exhale more than people that report "some" and has peaks as high as those that say severe. Really, the "severe" just shows that at that level it is harder to ignore for anyone. (The min is higher.) Now, the section "Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals exhaled similar levels of SARS-CoV-2 RNA," calls out the actual high data points for unvaccinated as being actually higher, with a max of 876 to 549. Though, again, it shows the CI is wider for vaccinated. Again, I'm mostly willing to get behind the claim that vaccinated people shed less. But that isn't strongly supported by the data. The data does support that super spreaders of 500+ exhaled breaths are unvaccinated. So, if you want to limit the claim to "vaccinated people are kept from severe symptoms," I feel that is mostly known and agreed with today. If you try to move the claim to "vaccinated shed less than unvaccinated," the data clearly indicates that is not supported. Again the 95% CI is higher for vaccinated individuals on this study.
- mint2 3y ago
  Look, I’m explaining how to interpret the experiment results they report, which they base their analysis and conclusions on. What I’m doing is going to the original foundation. What you’re looking at is the decorations they put on the foundation. I’ve explained over and over what their foundational experiment showed as described. stop being hung up on the decorations. The decorations are pretty bows and wrapping paper. That’s what you’re focusing on. Stop it. Bob went to France and got annoying no one said “hi” to him. His friend tried to explain what they said, “bonjour” meant hi. He wouldn’t accept it. We went to the land of academics, I explained what the academese means. You’re not accepting it, focusing instead on the wrong thing.
  - taeric 3y ago
    No, you are adding to it. Literally. Their data shows that vaccinated has a wider and higher 95% CI for exhaled. There are larger outliers in unvaccinated, but the signal in the data that they can isolate shows that you cannot claim vaccinated shed less. Which is why they don't claim that. You may have tried to go to the land of academics, but you are injecting stronger claims into what this paper reports than they are making. They never say anything about controlling for severity. They only show that self reported severity correlates with more shedding. Though, again, that is with a very high variance across the board for the other severity. Their chart showed, and all they claim, is that there is a correlation of "severe" with higher shedding over the other reported values. Note that this is not reporting that self reported symptoms correlates. It is specifically self reported "severe" does. Indeed, their data shows that folks that report "none" have higher 95% ranges than "mild" reports do.
    - mint2 3y ago
      This is the quote where they state they controlled for severity aka “accounted for”. I already posted it btw. Have a good day. Keep denying it. “ We found that vaccinated and unvaccinated participants exhaled similar numbers of SARS-CoV-2 RNA copies (Fig 2C), when accounting for age, sex, presence of co-morbidities, days since symptom onset and symptom severity”

by mint2 3y ago

taeric 3y ago

The quote they use is "We found no impact of vaccination status, viral variant, age, sex, or presence of co-morbidities." Specifically, in the section "Exhaled SARS-CoV-2 RNA levels increased with self-reported symptom severity," they say that they found folks with reported severe symptoms were higher than the others. However, it is worded and presented such that really only "severe" was higher. Indeed, figure 3c shows that vaccinated individuals have similar spikes as otherwise. (The CI is actually higher and wider on the chart for vaccinated?) That chart also highlights that people reporting "none" exhale more than people that report "some" and has peaks as high as those that say severe. Really, the "severe" just shows that at that level it is harder to ignore for anyone. (The min is higher.) Now, the section "Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals exhaled similar levels of SARS-CoV-2 RNA," calls out the actual high data points for unvaccinated as being actually higher, with a max of 876 to 549. Though, again, it shows the CI is wider for vaccinated. Again, I'm mostly willing to get behind the claim that vaccinated people shed less. But that isn't strongly supported by the data. The data does support that super spreaders of 500+ exhaled breaths are unvaccinated. So, if you want to limit the claim to "vaccinated people are kept from severe symptoms," I feel that is mostly known and agreed with today. If you try to move the claim to "vaccinated shed less than unvaccinated," the data clearly indicates that is not supported. Again the 95% CI is higher for vaccinated individuals on this study.

mint2 3y ago
Look, I’m explaining how to interpret the experiment results they report, which they base their analysis and conclusions on. What I’m doing is going to the original foundation. What you’re looking at is the decorations they put on the foundation. I’ve explained over and over what their foundational experiment showed as described. stop being hung up on the decorations. The decorations are pretty bows and wrapping paper. That’s what you’re focusing on. Stop it. Bob went to France and got annoying no one said “hi” to him. His friend tried to explain what they said, “bonjour” meant hi. He wouldn’t accept it. We went to the land of academics, I explained what the academese means. You’re not accepting it, focusing instead on the wrong thing.
- taeric 3y ago
  No, you are adding to it. Literally. Their data shows that vaccinated has a wider and higher 95% CI for exhaled. There are larger outliers in unvaccinated, but the signal in the data that they can isolate shows that you cannot claim vaccinated shed less. Which is why they don't claim that. You may have tried to go to the land of academics, but you are injecting stronger claims into what this paper reports than they are making. They never say anything about controlling for severity. They only show that self reported severity correlates with more shedding. Though, again, that is with a very high variance across the board for the other severity. Their chart showed, and all they claim, is that there is a correlation of "severe" with higher shedding over the other reported values. Note that this is not reporting that self reported symptoms correlates. It is specifically self reported "severe" does. Indeed, their data shows that folks that report "none" have higher 95% ranges than "mild" reports do.
  - mint2 3y ago
    This is the quote where they state they controlled for severity aka “accounted for”. I already posted it btw. Have a good day. Keep denying it. “ We found that vaccinated and unvaccinated participants exhaled similar numbers of SARS-CoV-2 RNA copies (Fig 2C), when accounting for age, sex, presence of co-morbidities, days since symptom onset and symptom severity”