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I applied for a job at a gas station in the late 90's. The store manager had to get permission to run a credit check that I needed for the job: The dude explain

I applied for a job at a gas station in the late 90's. The store manager had to get permission to run a credit check that I needed for the job: The dude explained that folks with bad credit were more likely to steal from the company. Which isn't true, of course, and they had other ways to check for theft - but this didn't stop them.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
How is it not true? Do you have evidence refuting the premise that people with bad credit are more likely to skim cash from the till?
- Broken_Hippo 3y ago
  Do you? Its been some years since I saw any reporting on it, and I'm honestly not going to spend the time to dig it up for a comment.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    I have no evidence either way, but it is not absurd in my opinion to suggest that people who make poor life decisions in one area of their lives might also make poor life decisions elsewhere.
    - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
      A bad credit score doesn't really mean you've made bad choices. It just means you had some bad luck. The reasons for your bad luck can range from medical bills, job loss, missing work when poor (it snowballs) and other such things. It might mean you made a bad decision when you were 18, but it is still hanging around on your credit. You might have been in a financially abusive relationship. Shit happens, and it is naive to think that you have absolute control over all of it. A few folks simply don't pay, sure, but you can't tell this from a credit report. And it isn't like you are going to get credit for paying most normal bills on time. Landlords and utilities rarely report positives to the agencies. And even with all this, it shouldn't realistically mean that folks can't get back up. Most jobs don't need credit checks, nor do most apartments (or at least, limited checks).
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
        > A bad credit score doesn't really mean you've made bad choices. It doesn't necessarily mean this, sure. But, if we found a thousand people with bad credit scores and did a deep audit, we wouldn't discover 1000 who had unavoidable, unpredictable misfortune. We likely wouldn't even find 500. > Shit happens, and it is naive to think I've heard alot of "shit happens" excuses over the years. Few of them struck me as "no matter what this person might have done, they were just fucked from day one". Shit doesn't happen, either in frequency or degree, nearly enough to explain the bad situations many are in. They tend to have alot of minor misfortunes sprinkled here and there among gigantic piles of poor decisions. >And it isn't like you are going to get credit for paying most normal bills on time. Landlords and utilities rarely report positives to the agencies. Funnily enough, I work adjacent to a company called Rent Dynamics, and one of the features that they offer is positive credit reporting for those who pay the rent on time. There are others that do this too. I'm still skeptical of the concept. Should some company hiring say "sure, he defaulted on that $18,000 of credit card debt 3 years ago, but look... he's paid his rent on time for the last 4 months knowing that if he screws that up he'll be evicted, and that counts for something!" ? Is that feature worth the slow accretion of extra (and sometimes hidden) fees that are pushing housing/rental prices higher in an era of skyrocking housing costs? Remember, this isn't something that shows up for luxury apartments, it's for the not-quite-slums apartments. We might find that landlords will do positive credit reporting here in the next few years, and that it's not the good thing you think it to be.
        kelnos 3y ago
        > Should some company hiring say "sure, he defaulted on that $18,000 of credit card debt 3 years ago, but look... he's paid his rent on time for the last 4 months knowing that if he screws that up he'll be evicted, and that counts for something!" ? No, they shouldn't be looking at this in the first place, because it is -- at best! -- tangentially related to job performance. If you're worried that your employee is going to be distracted by personal financial issues, taking away their option to have steady income certainly isn't going to fix the situation. > Is that feature worth the slow accretion of extra (and sometimes hidden) fees that are pushing housing/rental prices higher in an era of skyrocking housing costs? What does this have to do with anything? Housing costs are skyrocketing primarily because of housing scarcity in desirable places to live (where existing residents have enacted policy to restrict further building). On top of that, we have wages that have not been keeping up with inflation, and a general increase in income inequality that helps to push housing further out of reach.
    - kelnos 3y ago
      You're assuming that a bad credit score actually does correlate with or indicate poor life decisions; many times it does not. And even in the cases where it does, yes, it actually is absurd to generalize poor life decisions in one life area with other areas. Some people are just bad at managing finances. That shouldn't disqualify them for any random job.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I think the burden of proof is in the other direction: if someone is going to use some sort of signal or test to determine if someone is eligible for employment, it is on them to present evidence that the signal/test actually accomplishes the objective they expect it to. In California, it is illegal to use a credit report in employment decisions (unless the position is in finance/accounting). Clearly lawmakers have decided that this sort of test isn't helpful, and is abused to deny qualified people employment.
  - me-vs-cat 3y ago
    Do you think those employers want to turn away qualified people and keep the positions vacant?
    - brewdad 3y ago
      No, but they might want to turn away a specific employee for an otherwise protected reason. Don't want to hire a black employee? Run a credit check. Statistically, black individuals have lower credit scores than white individuals. Deny them a job based on their credit score.
      - me-vs-cat 3y ago
        While that makes some sense, I'm apparently having a hard time getting over my conception that a private business would ever give the rejected candidate a specific reason they weren't offered the position. Surely this is cultural on my part.
        b112 3y ago
        In the past, this was common. People would tell you why, and as a result, you might be able to respond with a reason, or, fix the perceived deficiency. Now everyone is afraid of being sued, and all sorts of court cases in the last decade or two, validate that fear. So now no one tells, and therefore, no one knows why. And so, you never get a chance to explain, or give context, or even prove a mark against you is in error. Sometimes, social justice solutions can backfire.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

How is it not true? Do you have evidence refuting the premise that people with bad credit are more likely to skim cash from the till?

Broken_Hippo 3y ago
Do you? Its been some years since I saw any reporting on it, and I'm honestly not going to spend the time to dig it up for a comment.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  I have no evidence either way, but it is not absurd in my opinion to suggest that people who make poor life decisions in one area of their lives might also make poor life decisions elsewhere.
  - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
    A bad credit score doesn't really mean you've made bad choices. It just means you had some bad luck. The reasons for your bad luck can range from medical bills, job loss, missing work when poor (it snowballs) and other such things. It might mean you made a bad decision when you were 18, but it is still hanging around on your credit. You might have been in a financially abusive relationship. Shit happens, and it is naive to think that you have absolute control over all of it. A few folks simply don't pay, sure, but you can't tell this from a credit report. And it isn't like you are going to get credit for paying most normal bills on time. Landlords and utilities rarely report positives to the agencies. And even with all this, it shouldn't realistically mean that folks can't get back up. Most jobs don't need credit checks, nor do most apartments (or at least, limited checks).
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      > A bad credit score doesn't really mean you've made bad choices. It doesn't necessarily mean this, sure. But, if we found a thousand people with bad credit scores and did a deep audit, we wouldn't discover 1000 who had unavoidable, unpredictable misfortune. We likely wouldn't even find 500. > Shit happens, and it is naive to think I've heard alot of "shit happens" excuses over the years. Few of them struck me as "no matter what this person might have done, they were just fucked from day one". Shit doesn't happen, either in frequency or degree, nearly enough to explain the bad situations many are in. They tend to have alot of minor misfortunes sprinkled here and there among gigantic piles of poor decisions. >And it isn't like you are going to get credit for paying most normal bills on time. Landlords and utilities rarely report positives to the agencies. Funnily enough, I work adjacent to a company called Rent Dynamics, and one of the features that they offer is positive credit reporting for those who pay the rent on time. There are others that do this too. I'm still skeptical of the concept. Should some company hiring say "sure, he defaulted on that $18,000 of credit card debt 3 years ago, but look... he's paid his rent on time for the last 4 months knowing that if he screws that up he'll be evicted, and that counts for something!" ? Is that feature worth the slow accretion of extra (and sometimes hidden) fees that are pushing housing/rental prices higher in an era of skyrocking housing costs? Remember, this isn't something that shows up for luxury apartments, it's for the not-quite-slums apartments. We might find that landlords will do positive credit reporting here in the next few years, and that it's not the good thing you think it to be.
      - kelnos 3y ago
        > Should some company hiring say "sure, he defaulted on that $18,000 of credit card debt 3 years ago, but look... he's paid his rent on time for the last 4 months knowing that if he screws that up he'll be evicted, and that counts for something!" ? No, they shouldn't be looking at this in the first place, because it is -- at best! -- tangentially related to job performance. If you're worried that your employee is going to be distracted by personal financial issues, taking away their option to have steady income certainly isn't going to fix the situation. > Is that feature worth the slow accretion of extra (and sometimes hidden) fees that are pushing housing/rental prices higher in an era of skyrocking housing costs? What does this have to do with anything? Housing costs are skyrocketing primarily because of housing scarcity in desirable places to live (where existing residents have enacted policy to restrict further building). On top of that, we have wages that have not been keeping up with inflation, and a general increase in income inequality that helps to push housing further out of reach.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    You're assuming that a bad credit score actually does correlate with or indicate poor life decisions; many times it does not. And even in the cases where it does, yes, it actually is absurd to generalize poor life decisions in one life area with other areas. Some people are just bad at managing finances. That shouldn't disqualify them for any random job.
kelnos 3y ago
I think the burden of proof is in the other direction: if someone is going to use some sort of signal or test to determine if someone is eligible for employment, it is on them to present evidence that the signal/test actually accomplishes the objective they expect it to. In California, it is illegal to use a credit report in employment decisions (unless the position is in finance/accounting). Clearly lawmakers have decided that this sort of test isn't helpful, and is abused to deny qualified people employment.
- me-vs-cat 3y ago
  Do you think those employers want to turn away qualified people and keep the positions vacant?
  - brewdad 3y ago
    No, but they might want to turn away a specific employee for an otherwise protected reason. Don't want to hire a black employee? Run a credit check. Statistically, black individuals have lower credit scores than white individuals. Deny them a job based on their credit score.
    - me-vs-cat 3y ago
      While that makes some sense, I'm apparently having a hard time getting over my conception that a private business would ever give the rejected candidate a specific reason they weren't offered the position. Surely this is cultural on my part.
      - b112 3y ago
        In the past, this was common. People would tell you why, and as a result, you might be able to respond with a reason, or, fix the perceived deficiency. Now everyone is afraid of being sued, and all sorts of court cases in the last decade or two, validate that fear. So now no one tells, and therefore, no one knows why. And so, you never get a chance to explain, or give context, or even prove a mark against you is in error. Sometimes, social justice solutions can backfire.