3 ms·

Of course it requires debt relief, things go _wrong_ all the time, that’s just life and how the world works. Debt relief is also necessary for a peaceful socie

by elteto 3y ago

Of course it requires debt relief, things go _wrong_ all the time, that’s just life and how the world works. Debt relief is also necessary for a peaceful society. If you can’t legally discharge debt in some manner we’d have companies hiring enforcers like a shark loan would. It’s not a problem of capitalism, it’s a problem of reality.

ToucanLoucan 3y ago
> It’s not a problem of capitalism, it’s a problem of reality. I'm really not sure about that. > Of course it requires debt relief, things go _wrong_ all the time, that’s just life and how the world works. Yet funnily enough the people on top of all these vast structures sail away from their sinking ships on parachutes of gold (if they're even sinking: a lot of times they just sit and collect vast sums of unearned wealth because they had a lot of wealth already). If debt is such a bad business why are so many massive institutions in it, not discharging debt, and raking in the profits by the shovelful? > Debt relief is also necessary for a peaceful society. If you can’t legally discharge debt in some manner we’d have companies hiring enforcers like a shark loan would. This however we can agree on. As the amount of debts that can be accrued and not discharged (student loans being the biggest) goes up, the economy seems ever more unstable and unsustainable. As it turns out when you strip mine your consumers wallets from every angle, eventually they seem to be unable to buy things for some reason. Then demand craters and your economy stalls. And just to head off this reply I always get in these discussions about useless degrees and STEM and etc. etc., I think to be frank, if indeed we're only interested in financing "worthwhile" educations, then that should be enforced by the financier, no? A bank wouldn't loan you $200,000 to buy a single-wide trailer on rented land, the asset is not now nor would it ever be worth that, so why is a student able to borrow six figures for a again in quotes, "worthless" literature degree, and be strapped to that one decision they made for life?
- elteto 3y ago
  I think you mistook my comment as a defense of capitalism. Although I do believe a system based on private property and individual freedom is superior to the alternative, I wasn’t making that statement. I was just pointing out something at a much lower level: we need debt relief because we don’t live in a perfect world, things go south and we need for people to be able to move on. That’s it. We could talk about the inequalities built into the system, but that would be a different conversation.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    Ah that's very fair. My apologies.
  - specialist 3y ago
    Yes and: As an anthropologist, Graeber details historical examples of capital, markets, debt, currency, etc. TLDR: They're all ancient. Graeber doesn't try to define capitalism much less Capitalism. He cares about social structures and relations, not finance and monetary policy. But absolutely do not take me as an authority on Graeber or these subjects. He spent decades researching and refining. I'm just relating my noob understanding of his writing.
  - danans 3y ago
    > we need debt relief because we don’t live in a perfect world, things go south and we need for people to be able to move on. That’s it. We need debt relief (AKA bankruptcy) to avoid actual debt-slavery, which is what preceded bankruptcy laws.

by elteto 3y ago

ToucanLoucan 3y ago

> It’s not a problem of capitalism, it’s a problem of reality. I'm really not sure about that. > Of course it requires debt relief, things go _wrong_ all the time, that’s just life and how the world works. Yet funnily enough the people on top of all these vast structures sail away from their sinking ships on parachutes of gold (if they're even sinking: a lot of times they just sit and collect vast sums of unearned wealth because they had a lot of wealth already). If debt is such a bad business why are so many massive institutions in it, not discharging debt, and raking in the profits by the shovelful? > Debt relief is also necessary for a peaceful society. If you can’t legally discharge debt in some manner we’d have companies hiring enforcers like a shark loan would. This however we can agree on. As the amount of debts that can be accrued and not discharged (student loans being the biggest) goes up, the economy seems ever more unstable and unsustainable. As it turns out when you strip mine your consumers wallets from every angle, eventually they seem to be unable to buy things for some reason. Then demand craters and your economy stalls. And just to head off this reply I always get in these discussions about useless degrees and STEM and etc. etc., I think to be frank, if indeed we're only interested in financing "worthwhile" educations, then that should be enforced by the financier, no? A bank wouldn't loan you $200,000 to buy a single-wide trailer on rented land, the asset is not now nor would it ever be worth that, so why is a student able to borrow six figures for a again in quotes, "worthless" literature degree, and be strapped to that one decision they made for life?

elteto 3y ago
I think you mistook my comment as a defense of capitalism. Although I do believe a system based on private property and individual freedom is superior to the alternative, I wasn’t making that statement. I was just pointing out something at a much lower level: we need debt relief because we don’t live in a perfect world, things go south and we need for people to be able to move on. That’s it. We could talk about the inequalities built into the system, but that would be a different conversation.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  Ah that's very fair. My apologies.
- specialist 3y ago
  Yes and: As an anthropologist, Graeber details historical examples of capital, markets, debt, currency, etc. TLDR: They're all ancient. Graeber doesn't try to define capitalism much less Capitalism. He cares about social structures and relations, not finance and monetary policy. But absolutely do not take me as an authority on Graeber or these subjects. He spent decades researching and refining. I'm just relating my noob understanding of his writing.
- danans 3y ago
  > we need debt relief because we don’t live in a perfect world, things go south and we need for people to be able to move on. That’s it. We need debt relief (AKA bankruptcy) to avoid actual debt-slavery, which is what preceded bankruptcy laws.