4 ms·

To be clear, people know the difference between Kreditkarte and Girokarte. Also, some nuance here: using the terms "Karte" and "Kreditkarte" interchangeably isn

by nbadg 3y ago

To be clear, people know the difference between Kreditkarte and Girokarte. Also, some nuance here: using the terms "Karte" and "Kreditkarte" interchangeably isn't the same thing as "people don't know the difference". I'm not making a statement about whether or not people understand the difference between direct debit and revolving credit as concepts. I'm making a statement on the language that is used to describe them, which is IMO a pretty strong indicator of how fundamentally different the attitudes towards card payment are in the two countries. These things can and do vary regionally, but at least here (working class Berlin area), "Kreditkarte" or simply "Karte" is colloquially used for all plastic cards that are not Girokarten, when discussing in German (I'm a near-native speaker), regardless of whether or not it's revolving credit or direct debit. This could certainly be regional, but at least here, this includes in government buildings: "Keine Kreditzahlung möglich" (no payment with credit card possible) is used semi-interchangeably with "Keine Kartenzahlung möglich" (no payment with card possible -- note no explicit "credit"), and it means that they don't have any payment terminals that work with visa/mastercard payment processing, regardless of whether it's based on revolving credit or direct debit. Note that "Keine Kartenzahlung möglich" may also mean that Girokarten cannot be used, or it may say something like "Kartenzahlung nur eingeschränkt möglich" (card payment only limitedly possible). This can vary even from merchant to merchant and based on context: a grocery store that usually accepts Kreditkarten and Girokarten might say "Kartenzahlung nur eingeschränkt möglich" to note that their Visa/Mastercard PoS system is currently offline, but that they're still accepting Girokarten. But a bar that says "Keine Kreditzahlung möglich" is usually cash-only. Again, I'm talking about the everyday colloquial language used by working-class people in German language (a chunk of the people I'm talking about have very limited English anyways). This is different in circles that have higher amounts of financial literacy, or more exposure to American culture. I'm not talking about the kinds of people who follow Finanzfluss (then it's a different story) or have studied/traveled to the US, and I'm also not claiming that people don't actually know the difference. I'm trying to highlight how different the two systems are based on what words are and are not in regular usage and how their meanings are different in the two countries.

pjmlp 3y ago
I can only reply that west of Hamburg, Karte means any kind of card. Credit card is explicitly Kreditkarte. I also speak German fluenty, including partial knowledge of some dialects, and Swiss German. Since my last time in Berlin was 10 years ago, I'll have to take it.
- nbadg 3y ago
  Even in the local Ämtern? In my experience they're the worst offenders here. For example, Zahlungsmöglichkeiten on these two pages: [1] "Am Standort kann bar und mit girocard (mit PIN) (ehemals EC-Karte) bezahlt werden." This means nothing with Visa/Mastercard, period. Doesn't matter if you have a direct debit account or revolving credit. If you try to pay with eg an N26 Debit Mastercard, they say "Leider akzeptieren wir hier keine Kreditkarten". This language is basically standard in Berlin. When I responded with "das ist doch keine Kreditkarte, sondern eine Debitkarte" they said "ne, kommt von Mastercard, ist ne Kreditkarte. Sorry." [2] "Zahlungen sind auch mit Kreditkarte möglich (VISA, Mastercard und Maestro)." They don't differentiate between Kredit- and Debitkarte when you're actually there; the only difference at this location is that they have Zahlungsautomaten that are integrated with the payment processors. This is a perfect example: Kreditkarte here explicitly refers to the payment processing system and not to the way the payment is booked to your account. [1] https://service.berlin.de/standort/121646/ https://service.berlin.de/standort/121646/ [2] https://service.berlin.de/standort/121885/ https://service.berlin.de/standort/121885/
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    When Kreditkarte are allowed, by definition, EC-Karte are as well. When Girokarte/EC-Karte are accepted, there is no guarantee that Kreditkarte are as well.
    - nbadg 3y ago
      Sure, but that doesn't answer my question. What I'm saying is, the Ämter in Berlin are explicitly using the term "Kreditkarte" to refer to all Visa/Mastercard/Maestro cards, including debit cards. In Berlin, only the locations that say they accept Kreditkarten, will accept debit cards that are backed by Visa/Mastercard/Maestro payment infrastructure. If they only say they accept Girokarte, then they will not accept debit cards. What I'm asking is, does Hamburg use the same language at Ämtern as Berlin, or does it differentiate explicitly between Girokarte, Kreditkarte, and Debitkarte? I've tried to find this myself online, but I don't see anything official. Here's another example [1, page 116] from the BMI (so, federal now): "Haben Sie ein Konto bei einer Bank oder einer Sparkasse, wird Ihnen häufig eine Giro-card oder eine Kreditkarte ausgestellt (zum Teil gegen Gebühr), mit der Sie bezahlen können. Der bezahlte Betrag wird dann automatisch von Ihrem Konto abgebucht" > If you have an account by a bank or a Sparkasse (special kind of bank), you will often be issued a Girokarte or a Kreditkarte (sometimes for a fee), with which you can pay. The paid amount will then be automatically deducted from your account. Note that Debitkarte isn't even mentioned, and the behavior described for both kinds of cards is the same. This is not true of Kreditkarten that operate on a revolving credit basis; the amount is not automatically deducted from your account, but rather paid later. To me, this language is pretty clear: the federal government sees the system as "you either have a Girokarte or a Kreditkarte" and that Debitkarten are included in Kreditkarten. And, actually, even better, this bit from wikipedia [2] is explicit: "Der Begriff Kreditkarte wird international nicht einheitlich verwendet. In den deutschsprachigen Ländern werden damit sowohl echte Kreditkarten als auch Chargekarten, Daily-Chargekarten, Scheck- bzw. Debitkarten und Prepaidkarten bezeichnet" > The term Kreditkarte is not uniformly used internationally. In German-speaking countries it may refer to real credit cards, as well as charge cards, daily charge cards, check-cards or debit cards. [1] https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/publikationen/themen/migration/willkommen-in-deutschland_de.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=11 https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/publikatione... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreditkarte#Kartenarten https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreditkarte#Kartenarten

by nbadg 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago

I can only reply that west of Hamburg, Karte means any kind of card. Credit card is explicitly Kreditkarte. I also speak German fluenty, including partial knowledge of some dialects, and Swiss German. Since my last time in Berlin was 10 years ago, I'll have to take it.

nbadg 3y ago
Even in the local Ämtern? In my experience they're the worst offenders here. For example, Zahlungsmöglichkeiten on these two pages: [1] "Am Standort kann bar und mit girocard (mit PIN) (ehemals EC-Karte) bezahlt werden." This means nothing with Visa/Mastercard, period. Doesn't matter if you have a direct debit account or revolving credit. If you try to pay with eg an N26 Debit Mastercard, they say "Leider akzeptieren wir hier keine Kreditkarten". This language is basically standard in Berlin. When I responded with "das ist doch keine Kreditkarte, sondern eine Debitkarte" they said "ne, kommt von Mastercard, ist ne Kreditkarte. Sorry." [2] "Zahlungen sind auch mit Kreditkarte möglich (VISA, Mastercard und Maestro)." They don't differentiate between Kredit- and Debitkarte when you're actually there; the only difference at this location is that they have Zahlungsautomaten that are integrated with the payment processors. This is a perfect example: Kreditkarte here explicitly refers to the payment processing system and not to the way the payment is booked to your account. [1] https://service.berlin.de/standort/121646/ https://service.berlin.de/standort/121646/ [2] https://service.berlin.de/standort/121885/ https://service.berlin.de/standort/121885/
- pjmlp 3y ago
  When Kreditkarte are allowed, by definition, EC-Karte are as well. When Girokarte/EC-Karte are accepted, there is no guarantee that Kreditkarte are as well.
  - nbadg 3y ago
    Sure, but that doesn't answer my question. What I'm saying is, the Ämter in Berlin are explicitly using the term "Kreditkarte" to refer to all Visa/Mastercard/Maestro cards, including debit cards. In Berlin, only the locations that say they accept Kreditkarten, will accept debit cards that are backed by Visa/Mastercard/Maestro payment infrastructure. If they only say they accept Girokarte, then they will not accept debit cards. What I'm asking is, does Hamburg use the same language at Ämtern as Berlin, or does it differentiate explicitly between Girokarte, Kreditkarte, and Debitkarte? I've tried to find this myself online, but I don't see anything official. Here's another example [1, page 116] from the BMI (so, federal now): "Haben Sie ein Konto bei einer Bank oder einer Sparkasse, wird Ihnen häufig eine Giro-card oder eine Kreditkarte ausgestellt (zum Teil gegen Gebühr), mit der Sie bezahlen können. Der bezahlte Betrag wird dann automatisch von Ihrem Konto abgebucht" > If you have an account by a bank or a Sparkasse (special kind of bank), you will often be issued a Girokarte or a Kreditkarte (sometimes for a fee), with which you can pay. The paid amount will then be automatically deducted from your account. Note that Debitkarte isn't even mentioned, and the behavior described for both kinds of cards is the same. This is not true of Kreditkarten that operate on a revolving credit basis; the amount is not automatically deducted from your account, but rather paid later. To me, this language is pretty clear: the federal government sees the system as "you either have a Girokarte or a Kreditkarte" and that Debitkarten are included in Kreditkarten. And, actually, even better, this bit from wikipedia [2] is explicit: "Der Begriff Kreditkarte wird international nicht einheitlich verwendet. In den deutschsprachigen Ländern werden damit sowohl echte Kreditkarten als auch Chargekarten, Daily-Chargekarten, Scheck- bzw. Debitkarten und Prepaidkarten bezeichnet" > The term Kreditkarte is not uniformly used internationally. In German-speaking countries it may refer to real credit cards, as well as charge cards, daily charge cards, check-cards or debit cards. [1] https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/publikationen/themen/migration/willkommen-in-deutschland_de.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=11 https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/publikatione... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreditkarte#Kartenarten https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreditkarte#Kartenarten