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A big problem that the web has is that it has no standard for micro-transactions. As such, the web is powered by ads or subscriptions. That's a fact. Of course

A big problem that the web has is that it has no standard for micro-transactions. As such, the web is powered by ads or subscriptions. That's a fact. Of course, we can talk about the "indie web", the one in which enthusiasts often get overworked without pay, and then have to provide support for free to entitled users, while begging for donations to keep the servers alive (e.g., Mastodon, etc). But IMO that's not sustainable. Servers, electricity, people’s time aren't free. If ads go away, large portions of the web will be locked behind paywalls. You could say that's not your problem, however, you're a privileged individual that can probably afford to pay for YouTube or whatever else you need, whereas the poor can't afford it. Ads going away also means that your average online publication can only survive if subsidized by a bigger player, like Facebook. Especially smaller newspapers, as there is only one NY Times and subscriptions fatigue is real. People that want to ban advertisements are basically the NIMBYs of the online world. Fact of the matter is that absolutely all browsers are funded directly by ads, including Safari and Firefox (both funded by Google actually). Brave Software had the audacity to speak against the Topics API, while having plans to also do client-side targeting, but in a way that keeps the results under Brave's lock (data for me but not for thee). Vivaldi spoke against the Topics API while defaulting to Bing and encouraging users to not block ads from their partners. I vaguely remembered that even Firefox flirted with client-side ads in the new-tab page. The Internet needs valid business models. Wanting ads to go away is like wanting capitalism to go away. And the people proposing it have no better solutions than having the government subsidize it all or just letting it crash and burn.

JohnFen 3y ago
I don't care if ads go away or not, but I care a lot about the tracking that ads bring. Getting rid of that alone would remove a whole lot of the problem. Moving the tracking into the browser itself is not a solution. It just makes the browser into an agent against the user rather than a user agent.
- bad_user 3y ago
  This is a good point actually. What I like about the Topics API is that it seems to put the user in control. And at least in the EU, I noticed they at least ask for permission and with a Reject button. And the dialog is clearer than your average GDPR consent form. The question is if the user is in control or not. For now I tend towards cautious optimism.
grishka 3y ago
> A big problem that the web has is that it has no standard for micro-transactions As a user, that's not my problem. And a browser is supposed to be a user agent — acting in my interests on my behalf. > however, you're a privileged individual that can probably afford to pay for YouTube or whatever else you need, whereas the poor can't afford it. I can afford it but I have zero subscriptions. Why would I pay for something if I can get an even better experience for free with an ad blocker? > Fact of the matter is that absolutely all browsers are funded directly by ads Well maybe we should finally, at last, decide what the scope of the web should be, and stop uncontrollably expanding it into the operating system territory. It helps to remember that a browser is merely a hypertext document viewer with support for macros. Most people still treat it like one. If browsers could be "finished" without requiring constant maintenance busy-work, maybe they won't need as much funding. And by the way, the SerenityOS project is building its own web browser from scratch with a small team that runs mostly on sheer enthusiasm (and a whopping $110 000 in donations from two companies): https://ladybird.dev https://ladybird.dev > The Internet needs valid business models The commercial part of the internet, which I will not miss the slightest if it goes away.
- yunohn 3y ago
  > As a user, that's not my problem. And a browser is supposed to be a user agent — acting in my interests on my behalf. I find it absolutely hilarious when HNers pull out a dictionary and act as if the issue is a misunderstanding of language.

JohnFen 3y ago

I don't care if ads go away or not, but I care a lot about the tracking that ads bring. Getting rid of that alone would remove a whole lot of the problem. Moving the tracking into the browser itself is not a solution. It just makes the browser into an agent against the user rather than a user agent.

bad_user 3y ago
This is a good point actually. What I like about the Topics API is that it seems to put the user in control. And at least in the EU, I noticed they at least ask for permission and with a Reject button. And the dialog is clearer than your average GDPR consent form. The question is if the user is in control or not. For now I tend towards cautious optimism.

grishka 3y ago

> A big problem that the web has is that it has no standard for micro-transactions As a user, that's not my problem. And a browser is supposed to be a user agent — acting in my interests on my behalf. > however, you're a privileged individual that can probably afford to pay for YouTube or whatever else you need, whereas the poor can't afford it. I can afford it but I have zero subscriptions. Why would I pay for something if I can get an even better experience for free with an ad blocker? > Fact of the matter is that absolutely all browsers are funded directly by ads Well maybe we should finally, at last, decide what the scope of the web should be, and stop uncontrollably expanding it into the operating system territory. It helps to remember that a browser is merely a hypertext document viewer with support for macros. Most people still treat it like one. If browsers could be "finished" without requiring constant maintenance busy-work, maybe they won't need as much funding. And by the way, the SerenityOS project is building its own web browser from scratch with a small team that runs mostly on sheer enthusiasm (and a whopping $110 000 in donations from two companies): https://ladybird.dev https://ladybird.dev > The Internet needs valid business models The commercial part of the internet, which I will not miss the slightest if it goes away.

yunohn 3y ago
> As a user, that's not my problem. And a browser is supposed to be a user agent — acting in my interests on my behalf. I find it absolutely hilarious when HNers pull out a dictionary and act as if the issue is a misunderstanding of language.