9 ms·

Defold: Lua game engine for web and mobile

64 points by sylvinus 3y ago

Orothrim 3y ago
I really like Defold, have used it for a number of small games I've developed for a side hustle.
- hesdeadjim 3y ago
  It’s the problem with this whole Unity crisis. Every other engine out there is… small. I have a 50+ person team with a big open world game and I’m basically fucked into accepting whatever Unity wants. I can’t just switch engines with four years of tech and team experience. And Unity knows this. It’s so fucking slimy and malicious.
  - ingonealan3 3y ago
    For someone who's completely out of the loop, what changes are the Unity peeps doing to their business model?
    - cpeterso 3y ago
      Unity plan pricing and packaging updates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37481344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37481344
    - stevekemp 3y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/12/unity-engine-fees-backlash-response https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/12/unity-engine-f... And later https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/13/unity-seeks-to-clarify-new-game-engine-charges-amid-outrage-from-developers https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/13/unity-seeks-to... Covered on this site, but downtime makes linking to the threads hard - I'm 50/50 on whether this comment will be accepted!
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    This is why I only use Open Source... if you build on a proprietary platform, the owner of that platform can change the terms at any time and you are stuck with a massive cost to change, or you just pay the ransom.
    - gorjusborg 3y ago
      In a competitive marketplace it can be hard to accept less than state-of-the-art. That said, we are seeing that it might be worth starting out on an open source platform and dig in to make it state-of-the-art. Not everyone is interested or capable of doing that, though.
      - treyd 3y ago
        Godot is well on its way to replicating the same kind of phenomenon Blender has succeeded at.
    - andersa 3y ago
      This can't happen to you if you use Unreal Engine.
      - whateveracct 3y ago
        Can't Unreal change their pricing model overnight?
        andersa 3y ago
        Only for future engine versions - you are able to continue developing and release your project with the one you already have under the previous version of the terms.
        ensignavenger 3y ago
        That is nice and all... but you still have to invest significant resources into building and training your team to use Unreal, and then if they change the terms for future versions, you are stuck on an old version if you don't accept those terms, until you retrain everyone. Of course, open source projects regrettably become closed source projects sometimes too (see Hashicorps recent moves), locking you into the previous version of the project.... but, with Open Source, you can fork the project and continue- or ally with other members of the community to fork- often at a lower cost than re-training and re-tooling. An option that does not exist in the proprietary world.
  - raincole 3y ago
    If Unity isn't so big it won't be a crisis, obviously.
  - cdumler 3y ago
    _"Today is the first day you have make changes."_ Unless your team's business model is to _be a Unity team_, it is a matter of determine your goals, evaluate options, get buy-in then start making changes every day to generate that outcome. Don't sell it as a "I hate Unity." Sell it as "it is time to consider how we maintain our future by diversify our skills."
stuckinhell 3y ago
I've been seeing a ton of game engines on hackernews in the last couple days. I think many hobby game developers don't realize the astounding important of designer oriented tools. Even most game companies have coders create designer oriented gui tools for games to be more productive. Whatever open source engine cracks an easy 3d player controller, dialogue system, human retargeted animation system, and easy editor extensions will KILL the competition asap.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  What's really missing is one (or multiple) open source "bring your own engine and asset pipeline" editor tool(s). Game editors have pretty much all arrived at the Unity scene model and editor workflow (game object outliner to the left, scene view in the middle, property panel on the right, asset browser at the bottom, plus floating panels for things like animations, material definitions, game specific data, or anything else really - everything needs to be extensible through scripting). The Unity Editor and asset pipeline is hackable enough to use it as editor for another engine, I did that in the past as "proof of concept" and it definitely works, but is most likely a legal minefield. Blender is also definitely hackable enough to serve that role (see: https://armory3d.org/ https://armory3d.org/) (again I did something similar in the past with Maya, it kinda works, but this wasn't very popular with artists because they were overwhelmed by the unfamiliar and complex Maya UI). PS: the Defold examples page is actually really cool, with realtime examples running in the browser: https://defold.com/examples/animation/spine/ https://defold.com/examples/animation/spine/
  - raincole 3y ago
    > I did that in the past as "proof of concept" and it definitely works, but is most likely a legal minefield. I really wonder how dangerous it is legally. I'm already been (slowly) writing a rust tool to convert some Unity .meta for bevy engine before the Unity pricing crisis.
  - meheleventyone 3y ago
    Something language server-esque could be really cool as well as a means of exposing the engine and pipeline to the editor.
cxr 3y ago
Not actually open source. This is yet another instance of a project eager to reap the rewards of being associated with "open source" without committing to it (i.e. with a license that would make it so). Defold is source-available and some flavor of royalty-free with limitations. It's actually worse than that, though, because it goes out of its way to obscure the license terms; in this instance, they're going for association with the cachet and warm fuzzies of the Apache license by throwing that name around, despite not actually being Apache licensed. This is not the result of oversight or ignorance. It's intentionally deceptive. For anyone who thinks that I'm reading between the lines and overstating this, you can refer to the last time this came up. They received sufficient pushback about their messaging. They're not just aware of the discrepancy between the consensus definition and the way they're using it, they acknowledged it explicitly. In response, they said, "We are humbled [...] also sorry for misrepresenting the license" and that "We have updated the website to reflect this and we no longer use the term"[1]. In 2023, there's a big fat nav item at the top of the site that says "Open Source". You click it and read the fine print which gradually reveals the truth of the matter. The "open source" part refers (apparently?) to... their extension ecosystem? Everything about this screams, "We know exactly what we're doing, but we're going about it in such a way that we can claim plausible deniability." 1. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23235217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23235217>
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    Personal vendetta? That's not what I'm reading from his comment. I appreciate that he's sharing details about the behavior of the developers around a piece of software that by its very nature is the foundation of its user's products. Given the issues w/ Unity, I think this information is pertinent and welcome.
  - SXX 3y ago
    They are free to run their business and we are free to point out how they distort meaning of "open source". They can easily call it "source available" and no one will bother them. There is actually open source game engine called Godot that licensed under standard MIT License. We should not let companies like Defold Foundation to mislead anyone to think their software product license is equal in terms of freedoms provided to community.
nahuel0x 3y ago
The Defold editor was written in Clojure, is this still the case?
- jakebasile 3y ago
  There's a good amount of it in the repo, according to GitHub.
- thom 3y ago
  And thus gave birth to cljfx, which are quite nice bindings to JavaFX (once you get your head around it all).
dang 3y ago
Related. Others? Defold engine code overview - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25569224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25569224 - Dec 2020 (45 comments) The Defold engine code style - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371705 - May 2020 (6 comments) Defold game engine source now available and free to use for commercial games - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23232648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23232648 - May 2020 (293 comments) Defold: 2D Game Engine by King.com - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11352546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11352546 - March 2016 (87 comments) Here's why King gave away its 2D mobile game engine Defold - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11321802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11321802 - March 2016 (12 comments) Defold: Free 2D Game Engine for Cross-Platform Publishing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10607837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10607837 - Nov 2015 (2 comments) Defold - Win/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS game engine - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4791284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4791284 - Nov 2012 (44 comments)

64 points by sylvinus 3y ago

Orothrim 3y ago

I really like Defold, have used it for a number of small games I've developed for a side hustle.

hesdeadjim 3y ago
It’s the problem with this whole Unity crisis. Every other engine out there is… small. I have a 50+ person team with a big open world game and I’m basically fucked into accepting whatever Unity wants. I can’t just switch engines with four years of tech and team experience. And Unity knows this. It’s so fucking slimy and malicious.
- ingonealan3 3y ago
  For someone who's completely out of the loop, what changes are the Unity peeps doing to their business model?
  - cpeterso 3y ago
    Unity plan pricing and packaging updates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37481344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37481344
  - stevekemp 3y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/12/unity-engine-fees-backlash-response https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/12/unity-engine-f... And later https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/13/unity-seeks-to-clarify-new-game-engine-charges-amid-outrage-from-developers https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/sep/13/unity-seeks-to... Covered on this site, but downtime makes linking to the threads hard - I'm 50/50 on whether this comment will be accepted!
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  This is why I only use Open Source... if you build on a proprietary platform, the owner of that platform can change the terms at any time and you are stuck with a massive cost to change, or you just pay the ransom.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    In a competitive marketplace it can be hard to accept less than state-of-the-art. That said, we are seeing that it might be worth starting out on an open source platform and dig in to make it state-of-the-art. Not everyone is interested or capable of doing that, though.
    - treyd 3y ago
      Godot is well on its way to replicating the same kind of phenomenon Blender has succeeded at.
  - andersa 3y ago
    This can't happen to you if you use Unreal Engine.
    - whateveracct 3y ago
      Can't Unreal change their pricing model overnight?
      - andersa 3y ago
        Only for future engine versions - you are able to continue developing and release your project with the one you already have under the previous version of the terms.
        ensignavenger 3y ago
        That is nice and all... but you still have to invest significant resources into building and training your team to use Unreal, and then if they change the terms for future versions, you are stuck on an old version if you don't accept those terms, until you retrain everyone. Of course, open source projects regrettably become closed source projects sometimes too (see Hashicorps recent moves), locking you into the previous version of the project.... but, with Open Source, you can fork the project and continue- or ally with other members of the community to fork- often at a lower cost than re-training and re-tooling. An option that does not exist in the proprietary world.
- raincole 3y ago
  If Unity isn't so big it won't be a crisis, obviously.
- cdumler 3y ago
  _"Today is the first day you have make changes."_ Unless your team's business model is to _be a Unity team_, it is a matter of determine your goals, evaluate options, get buy-in then start making changes every day to generate that outcome. Don't sell it as a "I hate Unity." Sell it as "it is time to consider how we maintain our future by diversify our skills."

stuckinhell 3y ago

I've been seeing a ton of game engines on hackernews in the last couple days. I think many hobby game developers don't realize the astounding important of designer oriented tools. Even most game companies have coders create designer oriented gui tools for games to be more productive. Whatever open source engine cracks an easy 3d player controller, dialogue system, human retargeted animation system, and easy editor extensions will KILL the competition asap.

flohofwoe 3y ago
What's really missing is one (or multiple) open source "bring your own engine and asset pipeline" editor tool(s). Game editors have pretty much all arrived at the Unity scene model and editor workflow (game object outliner to the left, scene view in the middle, property panel on the right, asset browser at the bottom, plus floating panels for things like animations, material definitions, game specific data, or anything else really - everything needs to be extensible through scripting). The Unity Editor and asset pipeline is hackable enough to use it as editor for another engine, I did that in the past as "proof of concept" and it definitely works, but is most likely a legal minefield. Blender is also definitely hackable enough to serve that role (see: https://armory3d.org/ https://armory3d.org/) (again I did something similar in the past with Maya, it kinda works, but this wasn't very popular with artists because they were overwhelmed by the unfamiliar and complex Maya UI). PS: the Defold examples page is actually really cool, with realtime examples running in the browser: https://defold.com/examples/animation/spine/ https://defold.com/examples/animation/spine/
- raincole 3y ago
  > I did that in the past as "proof of concept" and it definitely works, but is most likely a legal minefield. I really wonder how dangerous it is legally. I'm already been (slowly) writing a rust tool to convert some Unity .meta for bevy engine before the Unity pricing crisis.
- meheleventyone 3y ago
  Something language server-esque could be really cool as well as a means of exposing the engine and pipeline to the editor.

cxr 3y ago

Not actually open source. This is yet another instance of a project eager to reap the rewards of being associated with "open source" without committing to it (i.e. with a license that would make it so). Defold is source-available and some flavor of royalty-free with limitations. It's actually worse than that, though, because it goes out of its way to obscure the license terms; in this instance, they're going for association with the cachet and warm fuzzies of the Apache license by throwing that name around, despite not actually being Apache licensed. This is not the result of oversight or ignorance. It's intentionally deceptive. For anyone who thinks that I'm reading between the lines and overstating this, you can refer to the last time this came up. They received sufficient pushback about their messaging. They're not just aware of the discrepancy between the consensus definition and the way they're using it, they acknowledged it explicitly. In response, they said, "We are humbled [...] also sorry for misrepresenting the license" and that "We have updated the website to reflect this and we no longer use the term"[1]. In 2023, there's a big fat nav item at the top of the site that says "Open Source". You click it and read the fine print which gradually reveals the truth of the matter. The "open source" part refers (apparently?) to... their extension ecosystem? Everything about this screams, "We know exactly what we're doing, but we're going about it in such a way that we can claim plausible deniability." 1. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23235217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23235217>

flohofwoe 3y ago
[flagged]
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  Personal vendetta? That's not what I'm reading from his comment. I appreciate that he's sharing details about the behavior of the developers around a piece of software that by its very nature is the foundation of its user's products. Given the issues w/ Unity, I think this information is pertinent and welcome.
- SXX 3y ago
  They are free to run their business and we are free to point out how they distort meaning of "open source". They can easily call it "source available" and no one will bother them. There is actually open source game engine called Godot that licensed under standard MIT License. We should not let companies like Defold Foundation to mislead anyone to think their software product license is equal in terms of freedoms provided to community.

nahuel0x 3y ago

The Defold editor was written in Clojure, is this still the case?

jakebasile 3y ago
There's a good amount of it in the repo, according to GitHub.
thom 3y ago
And thus gave birth to cljfx, which are quite nice bindings to JavaFX (once you get your head around it all).

dang 3y ago

Related. Others? Defold engine code overview - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25569224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25569224 - Dec 2020 (45 comments) The Defold engine code style - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371705 - May 2020 (6 comments) Defold game engine source now available and free to use for commercial games - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23232648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23232648 - May 2020 (293 comments) Defold: 2D Game Engine by King.com - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11352546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11352546 - March 2016 (87 comments) Here's why King gave away its 2D mobile game engine Defold - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11321802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11321802 - March 2016 (12 comments) Defold: Free 2D Game Engine for Cross-Platform Publishing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10607837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10607837 - Nov 2015 (2 comments) Defold - Win/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS game engine - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4791284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4791284 - Nov 2012 (44 comments)