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The same way any linux distro does? Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. Only program that can do so is

The same way any linux distro does? Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. Only program that can do so is the package manager, which other programs can call to install packages. Uninstall removes everything related to a program from this directory. > In the age of shared runtimes, auto-updaters, extension marketplaces, and JIT compilers, managing installed applications is harder than ever. The only reason these make things hard is that windows lacks any facility to deal with them. Solutions going forward: Outright ban having your own auto-updater, to auto-update you register your program and where to update it from with the package manager. Shared runtimes are trivial for package managers to handle, it's just a package that many other ones depend on. Extensions can be handled as packages.

BoppreH 3y ago
That was the first option, "provides a framework for installers/uninstallers". But what would you do with the millions of existing programs, most unmaintained? And what about programs with strong opinions on update schedules, or built-in extension marketplaces? It's easy to solve this problem if your first step is "replace every program".
- jraph 3y ago
  You could provide the framework that well-behaved, maintained programs will use while still allowing the old installers to run. By the way that's what we have on Linux, some programs come as a shell script that you run to install them. Most Java IDEs for instance. (which can't be arsed to provide proper packages -- darn, what did I just write? :-))
- winthrowe 3y ago
  If you care about this enough to abandon old software, they built that and called it Windows S and few wanted it.
  - riskable 3y ago
    Windows without backwards compatibility is a dead end because the only reason why Windows exists is backwards compatibility and the existing user base. As an OS it is decades behind all its competitors, with a 30yo filesystem, file locking ridiculousness (which is why uninstallers and updates end up being so complex and require reboots), an antiquated central registry for settings that ends up slowing the system down over time, and a security framework so broken that you need anti-malware software running and inspecting every little thing happening on your system or you're easily compromised (everything is executable by default). The security situation is so bad at this point that you can't trust any Windows benchmarks anymore. The benchmark suite will run on a "bare" Windows system; probably with updates and Windows Defender disabled and many other system services stopped to maximize performance and prevent background services from slowing everything down. The reality though is that on a regular user desktop all these things and a whole lot more will be enabled, resulting in vastly degraded performance compared to the benchmarks. The end user experience sucks. Now they're forcing ads down your throat and pestering you at every turn to use more Microsoft software (e.g. trying to get you to use Edge). They've also recently included UI changes in "essential" system updates that can't easily be reverted or undone, breaking people's workflows. It's anti-user insanity and it's all because Microsoft can't actually go back to the drawing board with Windows anymore because the alternatives are just too good. After using a Linux desktop full-time for a while, going back to Windows feels like going from having modern plumbing to pooping in the woods.
jraph 3y ago
I agree with you, now for completeness I should mention that Linux package formats usually allow packagers to provide arbitrary pre- and post- install shell scripts ran as root. (which means that if you don't trust a provider, not only it's not safe to run the program, but it's also unsafe to install it)
- mjan22640 3y ago
  The packages are cryptographically signed, you have the option to abort the install of an untrusted package before it does something malicious.
  - jraph 3y ago
    > packages are cryptographically signed packages are cryptographically signed by the packager, by the way on Debian you add the key when you install a new repository. The signature tells you "This package has been built by X and has not been tempered in the meantime", not "X and this package are not malicious, I promise". > you have the option to abort the install of an untrusted package before it does something malicious How do you do this in practice? If I run apt install p or or dpkg -i p.deb, the thing is installed. APT asks you for confirmation if it has to install additional dependencies but that's it. I don't have no guaranty such like for any package, I can install it without worrying something bad won't happen during its installation. Of course you should not install untrusted packages, but still. The same could not be said if the package format didn't have anything to specify arbitrary install scripts.
    - bombolo 3y ago
      [dead]
- ateng 3y ago
  >if you don't trust a provider, not only it's not safe to run the program, but it's also unsafe to install it Isn't it same for windows right now? `.msi` and `.exe` can execute arbitrary code right?
gruez 3y ago
>The same way any linux distro does? >Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. What about /usr/local/bin? Isn't that specifically for putting non package manager binaries into?
- webstrand 3y ago
  That's more for binaries and scripts manually installed by the administrator because they weren't available in the package manager or are custom.
mastax 3y ago
This is exactly how AppX/MSIX packages work, with C:\Program Files\WindowsApps (by default) being pretty substantially locked down. They even use filesystem/registry virtualization by default to isolate packages even further from each other. They also have solutions for framework packages and extensions though I haven't tried those out and suspect they have annoying practical limitations around edge cases. Of course, a decade later almost nobody uses those because they botched the rollout by limiting AppX to the Microsoft Store and an entirely new poorly documented and very restrictive set of windows APIs and app frameworks. They've made huge progress on all of those problems with MSIX to the point that it's a reasonably good and easy to use choice for most apps with some neat benefits like updates only downloading the changes between versions. Of course if your app pushes the boundaries of the sandbox or capabilities or runs into a bug it becomes a huge pain.
- ripley12 3y ago
  I don't think MSIX is a good choice for most apps. With a decent-sized user base, you will have a lot of people who run into undiagnosable errors with MSIX or can't use it because they're in locked-down enterprise environments. I think Affinity Photo's experience with MSIX is instructive; hundreds of negative results on their forum, eventually they had to back down and provide a non-MSIX installer (and at that point do ya really want to maintain 2 separate Windows installers?) https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/170529-extremely-disappointed-that-this-installs-as-an-app-and-not-regular-software-program/ https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/170529-ext... https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=msix&type=forums_topic&page=1&quick=1&nodes=5&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=msix&t...
tssva 3y ago
> The same way any linux distro does? I'm going to assume you are talking about rpm and deb packages since they are still currently the dominant installation packages on Linux. > Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. Only program that can do so is the package manager, which other programs can call to install packages. Windows does this. Programs are installed in directories under "C:\Program Files" which is only writable with elevated system rights. > Uninstall removes everything related to a program from this directory. rpm and debs don't install all the files needed for a program in a single directory. They are scattershot all over the file system and in many of these directories comingled with files from other programs. Windows comes closer than Linux in this regard since it does create the directory under "C:\Progtam Files" which while unfortunately doesn't always contain all the required files usually contains the vast majority.

BoppreH 3y ago

That was the first option, "provides a framework for installers/uninstallers". But what would you do with the millions of existing programs, most unmaintained? And what about programs with strong opinions on update schedules, or built-in extension marketplaces? It's easy to solve this problem if your first step is "replace every program".

jraph 3y ago
You could provide the framework that well-behaved, maintained programs will use while still allowing the old installers to run. By the way that's what we have on Linux, some programs come as a shell script that you run to install them. Most Java IDEs for instance. (which can't be arsed to provide proper packages -- darn, what did I just write? :-))
winthrowe 3y ago
If you care about this enough to abandon old software, they built that and called it Windows S and few wanted it.
- riskable 3y ago
  Windows without backwards compatibility is a dead end because the only reason why Windows exists is backwards compatibility and the existing user base. As an OS it is decades behind all its competitors, with a 30yo filesystem, file locking ridiculousness (which is why uninstallers and updates end up being so complex and require reboots), an antiquated central registry for settings that ends up slowing the system down over time, and a security framework so broken that you need anti-malware software running and inspecting every little thing happening on your system or you're easily compromised (everything is executable by default). The security situation is so bad at this point that you can't trust any Windows benchmarks anymore. The benchmark suite will run on a "bare" Windows system; probably with updates and Windows Defender disabled and many other system services stopped to maximize performance and prevent background services from slowing everything down. The reality though is that on a regular user desktop all these things and a whole lot more will be enabled, resulting in vastly degraded performance compared to the benchmarks. The end user experience sucks. Now they're forcing ads down your throat and pestering you at every turn to use more Microsoft software (e.g. trying to get you to use Edge). They've also recently included UI changes in "essential" system updates that can't easily be reverted or undone, breaking people's workflows. It's anti-user insanity and it's all because Microsoft can't actually go back to the drawing board with Windows anymore because the alternatives are just too good. After using a Linux desktop full-time for a while, going back to Windows feels like going from having modern plumbing to pooping in the woods.

jraph 3y ago

I agree with you, now for completeness I should mention that Linux package formats usually allow packagers to provide arbitrary pre- and post- install shell scripts ran as root. (which means that if you don't trust a provider, not only it's not safe to run the program, but it's also unsafe to install it)

mjan22640 3y ago
The packages are cryptographically signed, you have the option to abort the install of an untrusted package before it does something malicious.
- jraph 3y ago
  > packages are cryptographically signed packages are cryptographically signed by the packager, by the way on Debian you add the key when you install a new repository. The signature tells you "This package has been built by X and has not been tempered in the meantime", not "X and this package are not malicious, I promise". > you have the option to abort the install of an untrusted package before it does something malicious How do you do this in practice? If I run apt install p or or dpkg -i p.deb, the thing is installed. APT asks you for confirmation if it has to install additional dependencies but that's it. I don't have no guaranty such like for any package, I can install it without worrying something bad won't happen during its installation. Of course you should not install untrusted packages, but still. The same could not be said if the package format didn't have anything to specify arbitrary install scripts.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    [dead]
ateng 3y ago
>if you don't trust a provider, not only it's not safe to run the program, but it's also unsafe to install it Isn't it same for windows right now? `.msi` and `.exe` can execute arbitrary code right?

gruez 3y ago

>The same way any linux distro does? >Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. What about /usr/local/bin? Isn't that specifically for putting non package manager binaries into?

webstrand 3y ago
That's more for binaries and scripts manually installed by the administrator because they weren't available in the package manager or are custom.

mastax 3y ago

This is exactly how AppX/MSIX packages work, with C:\Program Files\WindowsApps (by default) being pretty substantially locked down. They even use filesystem/registry virtualization by default to isolate packages even further from each other. They also have solutions for framework packages and extensions though I haven't tried those out and suspect they have annoying practical limitations around edge cases. Of course, a decade later almost nobody uses those because they botched the rollout by limiting AppX to the Microsoft Store and an entirely new poorly documented and very restrictive set of windows APIs and app frameworks. They've made huge progress on all of those problems with MSIX to the point that it's a reasonably good and easy to use choice for most apps with some neat benefits like updates only downloading the changes between versions. Of course if your app pushes the boundaries of the sandbox or capabilities or runs into a bug it becomes a huge pain.

ripley12 3y ago
I don't think MSIX is a good choice for most apps. With a decent-sized user base, you will have a lot of people who run into undiagnosable errors with MSIX or can't use it because they're in locked-down enterprise environments. I think Affinity Photo's experience with MSIX is instructive; hundreds of negative results on their forum, eventually they had to back down and provide a non-MSIX installer (and at that point do ya really want to maintain 2 separate Windows installers?) https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/170529-extremely-disappointed-that-this-installs-as-an-app-and-not-regular-software-program/ https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/170529-ext... https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=msix&type=forums_topic&page=1&quick=1&nodes=5&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/search/&q=msix&t...

tssva 3y ago

> The same way any linux distro does? I'm going to assume you are talking about rpm and deb packages since they are still currently the dominant installation packages on Linux. > Define a separate directory for program installations, that user processes cannot write to. Only program that can do so is the package manager, which other programs can call to install packages. Windows does this. Programs are installed in directories under "C:\Program Files" which is only writable with elevated system rights. > Uninstall removes everything related to a program from this directory. rpm and debs don't install all the files needed for a program in a single directory. They are scattershot all over the file system and in many of these directories comingled with files from other programs. Windows comes closer than Linux in this regard since it does create the directory under "C:\Progtam Files" which while unfortunately doesn't always contain all the required files usually contains the vast majority.