5 ms·

ISO20022 is going to kill all of these intermediaries. Systems like Australia's NPP and associated PayID/PayTo schemes, India's UPI, US FedNow etc replace all

by rswail 3y ago

ISO20022 is going to kill all of these intermediaries. Systems like Australia's NPP and associated PayID/PayTo schemes, India's UPI, US FedNow etc replace all of the middle-men clipping the ticket with a close to direct account-to-account transfer, regulated by the appropriate reserve bank or equivalent. It doesn't work across currency borders (yet) but as these systems ramp up, with their substantially lowered costs and reduced friction, even the big guys like Visa/MC are going to be affected. And that's even before the central banks work on create their own digital coins (stable by default because backed by the fiat currency issuer).

stewx 3y ago
Do those protocols have dispute resolution mechanisms? If not, they are not directly comparable to PayPal.
- pjmorris 3y ago
  Don't they have the dispute resolution mechanisms of the country implementing them, e.g. Australia, the US, India? Compared to that, PayPal seems like it'd have weaker dispute resolution mechanisms.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  No, they don't. If you get scammed on a purchase the bank will simply say "Tough luck!" and ask you to stop bothering them. Credit and Debit cards offer unparalleled consumer protection, that's why consumers give preference to business that accept cards – it takes away at least some of the worry when purchasing. What I don't understand are the people who - as customers - want to do away with credit and debit cards and replace them with these bank transactions that have no protections.
  - yomlica8 3y ago
    I thought debit cards weren't a lot better than bank transfers in this regard. Credit cards certainly are better though.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Depends on the specific debit card. Many do offer strong protections. Always read the contract.
Spivak 3y ago
I doubt it, it will only solve the case of "pay your friends who you have an already established trust relationships with." Any transaction with a business or stranger there will still be a market for something reversible, disputable, and with insurance against scams. They also hook into currently exchanges automatically for you when paying overseas and their jurisdiction for pulling back your money is global rather than just in your country. FedNow is a Zelle/ACH killer, they don't provide direct-to-consumer services and if your bank or consortium of banks ever issues cards/apps that can be used at new POS systems they will have just invented Visa, and there's no reason Visa won't support settlement with Fednow over ACH. You could already cut out Visa with a "Pay with Zelle" type scheme but there's little appetite for it even in countries where their version of FedNow has existed for years.
- govg 3y ago
  >You could already cut out Visa with a "Pay with Zelle" type scheme but there's little appetite for it even in countries where their version of FedNow has existed for years. That is just wrong though - pretty much in every country out there that has a good direct payments scheme exposed to customers, it is gaining market share at the expense of credit cards. Pix in Brazil and UPI in India are only two such examples, in both countries these are well on the way / are the dominant payment mechanism for ordinary consumers transacting with businesses.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  Things like AfterPay exist. Or you could only do business with reputable companies- that has worked for me.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    AfterPay is just PayPal with a different coat of paint. Hell, PayPal offers an AfterPay like service. Also reputable lol, the worst businesses needing disputes are national household names. I've gotten fewer issues from random Etsy sellers than my cellular provider.
glitchc 3y ago
A common data format can't solve the problems of the finance industry. India's UPI is a completely different way to think about things.
spir 3y ago
Payment systems like Central Bank Digital Currencies, FedNow, India's UPI, or ISO20022 won't be able to compete with the broad and deep benefits offered by public blockchains. For example, using Ethereum L2s or other public chains, anybody in the world with a phone will be able to access American T-Bills and equities, lending products, and much more. Public chains are a better foundation for a global free market economy, and that includes but is not limited to payments.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  I think they already lost. I've been following cryptocurrency since 2014 and it feels no more widely-accepted today than it was a decade ago. If anything, people realized that there's no regulatory body and started the process of exploiting that en-masse. Now you don't know which public chain or L2 network to trust, since half of them rely on $MONEY_CORP and their proprietary bridge software. The crypto dream is dead. If you didn't sell out at the peak of the bubble a couple years ago, I do feel sorry for you.

by rswail 3y ago

stewx 3y ago

Do those protocols have dispute resolution mechanisms? If not, they are not directly comparable to PayPal.

pjmorris 3y ago
Don't they have the dispute resolution mechanisms of the country implementing them, e.g. Australia, the US, India? Compared to that, PayPal seems like it'd have weaker dispute resolution mechanisms.
carlosjobim 3y ago
No, they don't. If you get scammed on a purchase the bank will simply say "Tough luck!" and ask you to stop bothering them. Credit and Debit cards offer unparalleled consumer protection, that's why consumers give preference to business that accept cards – it takes away at least some of the worry when purchasing. What I don't understand are the people who - as customers - want to do away with credit and debit cards and replace them with these bank transactions that have no protections.
- yomlica8 3y ago
  I thought debit cards weren't a lot better than bank transfers in this regard. Credit cards certainly are better though.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Depends on the specific debit card. Many do offer strong protections. Always read the contract.

Spivak 3y ago

I doubt it, it will only solve the case of "pay your friends who you have an already established trust relationships with." Any transaction with a business or stranger there will still be a market for something reversible, disputable, and with insurance against scams. They also hook into currently exchanges automatically for you when paying overseas and their jurisdiction for pulling back your money is global rather than just in your country. FedNow is a Zelle/ACH killer, they don't provide direct-to-consumer services and if your bank or consortium of banks ever issues cards/apps that can be used at new POS systems they will have just invented Visa, and there's no reason Visa won't support settlement with Fednow over ACH. You could already cut out Visa with a "Pay with Zelle" type scheme but there's little appetite for it even in countries where their version of FedNow has existed for years.

govg 3y ago
>You could already cut out Visa with a "Pay with Zelle" type scheme but there's little appetite for it even in countries where their version of FedNow has existed for years. That is just wrong though - pretty much in every country out there that has a good direct payments scheme exposed to customers, it is gaining market share at the expense of credit cards. Pix in Brazil and UPI in India are only two such examples, in both countries these are well on the way / are the dominant payment mechanism for ordinary consumers transacting with businesses.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
Things like AfterPay exist. Or you could only do business with reputable companies- that has worked for me.
- Spivak 3y ago
  AfterPay is just PayPal with a different coat of paint. Hell, PayPal offers an AfterPay like service. Also reputable lol, the worst businesses needing disputes are national household names. I've gotten fewer issues from random Etsy sellers than my cellular provider.

glitchc 3y ago

A common data format can't solve the problems of the finance industry. India's UPI is a completely different way to think about things.

spir 3y ago

Payment systems like Central Bank Digital Currencies, FedNow, India's UPI, or ISO20022 won't be able to compete with the broad and deep benefits offered by public blockchains. For example, using Ethereum L2s or other public chains, anybody in the world with a phone will be able to access American T-Bills and equities, lending products, and much more. Public chains are a better foundation for a global free market economy, and that includes but is not limited to payments.

smoldesu 3y ago
I think they already lost. I've been following cryptocurrency since 2014 and it feels no more widely-accepted today than it was a decade ago. If anything, people realized that there's no regulatory body and started the process of exploiting that en-masse. Now you don't know which public chain or L2 network to trust, since half of them rely on $MONEY_CORP and their proprietary bridge software. The crypto dream is dead. If you didn't sell out at the peak of the bubble a couple years ago, I do feel sorry for you.