5 ms·

> A fuel pump can fill up 6-7, maybe more cars in the time it takes to partially (say to 80% or so) fill up one electric car. This is precisely my point with E

> A fuel pump can fill up 6-7, maybe more cars in the time it takes to partially (say to 80% or so) fill up one electric car. This is precisely my point with EV. Don't get me wrong, I WANT to buy EV, but the whole ecosystem is still not quite mature enough. With my petrol car, I can turn up at a gas station with the tank near-empty and I can fill it up to full in 5 minutes, or 8 minutes tops if I'm "running on fumes". Meanwhile if I turn up with an EV (any EV, even a Tesla on the superchargers) with 8–10% charge left, I need to sit in a godforsaken carpark twiddling my thumbs for 15–20 minutes and that ONLY gets me to 80% charge, if I wanted 100% charge (i.e. on-par with a full-tank on petrol) I'd be sitting there forever. I'm not talking out of my head or from heresy. On a recent holiday I hired a top of the range EV and did a lot of driving as it was a road-trip type holiday. So I'm speaking from first-hand experience here. (And before the EV-fanbois come along, yes I did my homework, yes I spoke to friends who are EV owners before I left, so I was absolutely up-to-date on the latest "how to do it" for the exact car I rented). So yeah, charging ABSOLUTELY needs to get to a point where it's on-par with "splash and dash" in the petrol world. The related point is batteries. Clearly more mature batteries equals more range equals less need to charge. So that is another area ripe for more maturity.

robertlagrant 3y ago
> So yeah, charging ABSOLUTELY needs to get to a point where it's on-par with "splash and dash" in the petrol world I don't think there's anyone in the world who wouldn't like this, and there are many people already working on it. But I would say: you don't seem to be justifying the statement I've quoted. You're speaking from experience to say that filling up an EV from 0-100% is slower than an ICE vehicle, but everyone knows that. You're not saying why every EV needs this for everyone's case, aside from your use of capital letters. The reality is that would be nice (or having a fusion reactor where I never have to fill up again would be nicer), but there are plenty of people and journeys that happen in ways that EVs could easily fulfil, and the zero to three journeys a year most people do that require a long uninterrupted haul across hundreds of miles might have to be planned a little differently, or might require the renting of an ICE car.
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > but there are plenty of people ..... I'm afraid you are perfectly demonstrating my point that the pro-EV side contort themselves to extreme levels to try to justify the lack of maturity in EV. The fact is: I own an ICE car. Whether I drive it 5 miles or 500 miles is irrelevant. I don't have to "plan a little differently" on my 500 mile journey. And I don't have to drive a different car on the 500 mile trip. As I said at the start of my original post. I am on your side. I want to buy EV. But I suspect, like many others, I look at it objectively and I see that the technology is not quite mature enough. I've no doubt one day it will be, but not today.
  - jmaker 3y ago
    In addition, there’s an immense mental burden on the driver from having to keep track of everything related to charging and planning your trip ahead. And battery capacity degrades over time, too. I have yet to find a reliable wear and tear figure to estimate when to sell the EV.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      What mental burden? I punch my destination into my nav and it tells me if & when & where I need to charge.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    I'm not on a side. I'm just saying there's no point flat out stating that things must improve when a) for a lot of people they're good enough right now, and it's about effort invested vs additional numbers of people to reach, and b) real experts are already constantly working on this.
pavlov 3y ago
> ‘charging ABSOLUTELY needs to get to a point where it's on-par with "splash and dash" in the petrol world’ People will accept some increase in inconvenience on a particular metric if the product is a lot better on other metrics. Look at mobile phones. Before the iPhone, all of them had a detachable battery. When Apple came out with a device with a glued-in battery, a lot of people were saying they would never ever buy a phone whose battery can’t be swapped out for a fresh spare. The argument was same as yours: “I can’t possibly wait ten minutes to charge if the phone dies!” Presumably 99.9% of those people now carry a smartphone with a fixed battery.
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > Presumably 99.9% of those people now carry a smartphone with a fixed battery. Your argument happily co-incides with the point I was making. Smartphones have matured and are now at the point where you easily get a whole day's battery life, maybe a day and a half if you don't use it much. So who cares if the battery is glued in. (And as an aside, phones also charge a lot faster than they used to). EV needs to go through the same maturity process.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    But today's smartphones are still nowhere near the convenience of a 2005 Nokia phone which could go several days on one charge, and you could also swap out the battery for a spare. Phones used to do so much less, and the software was optimized to conserve energy on those limited use cases. Similarly EVs don't need to exactly reach the convenience of refueling, it just needs to be good enough in balance.
    - jmaker 3y ago
      How does that analogy apply if you’re trying to justify that one should simply give up that “convenience,” which has just been a basic notion of car driving? In my view it’s rather an inconvenience. I’d rather not have to manage that concern at all. Instead, you suggest to accept an even worse alternative? Smartphones are capable of more, not less. EVs aren’t capable of more than an ICEV, which doesn’t hold up to an analogy.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
> I need to sit in a godforsaken carpark twiddling my thumbs for 15–20 minutes You don't use the bathroom or buy coffees? With a family, that'll kill your entire 20 minutes. Food or sleep will kill even more time. And why the heck would you sit in your car while waiting? If you're driving in your car all day, a 10 minute walk every 3 hours will do wonders for your sanity and health. There's a reason commercial drivers are required by law to take a 30 minute break every 4 hours.
- avar 3y ago
  I'm not the GP, but I've driven a lot through western Europe, including Germany. There's two break patterns when driving a gasoline powered vehicle that I'd really miss if I had an EV: 1) More frequent but short breaks, e.g. literally a 3-4 minute break every hour. Just enough to fill up the tank, for someone to run into the bathroom etc. 2) If doing a long break (e.g. lunch with the family) do a 2-3 minute stop at a gas station before orafter, but for the stop itself drive 5-10 minutes off the main road to unwind somewhere for an hour on more. E.g. I was recently driving through the Rheine valley, and had lunch with this view, which is a 10 minute drive from the closest gas station: https://goo.gl/maps/VVXTWQDkc2F48UHe8 https://goo.gl/maps/VVXTWQDkc2F48UHe8 If I had an EV I'd have been stuck with the family in some uninviting car park at that gas station instead, and instead of a nice lunch having to pick through overpriced gas station fast food options.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    I totally understand your #2. My long drives are across Canada, and between Ottawa and Winnipeg (2200km) it's all relatively unpopulated Canadian Shield so it's rare to find a stop that isn't well treed. Most of the superchargers on the route are in "towns" with populations of about 10 and pleasant environments. Re #1: I find that those types of stops happen at the beginning of trips. If you're only an hour or two into your trip when you need to grab gasoline, you grab it quick. But with an EV you should be charging at home or at your hotel overnight, so you start out with a full battery and don't need a charge until about 4 hours in. Once you're 4 hours into a driving day, you want to stop for more than 3 minutes.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> So yeah, charging ABSOLUTELY needs to get to a point where it's on-par with "splash and dash" in the petrol world I don't think there's anyone in the world who wouldn't like this, and there are many people already working on it. But I would say: you don't seem to be justifying the statement I've quoted. You're speaking from experience to say that filling up an EV from 0-100% is slower than an ICE vehicle, but everyone knows that. You're not saying why every EV needs this for everyone's case, aside from your use of capital letters. The reality is that would be nice (or having a fusion reactor where I never have to fill up again would be nicer), but there are plenty of people and journeys that happen in ways that EVs could easily fulfil, and the zero to three journeys a year most people do that require a long uninterrupted haul across hundreds of miles might have to be planned a little differently, or might require the renting of an ICE car.

traceroute66 3y ago
> but there are plenty of people ..... I'm afraid you are perfectly demonstrating my point that the pro-EV side contort themselves to extreme levels to try to justify the lack of maturity in EV. The fact is: I own an ICE car. Whether I drive it 5 miles or 500 miles is irrelevant. I don't have to "plan a little differently" on my 500 mile journey. And I don't have to drive a different car on the 500 mile trip. As I said at the start of my original post. I am on your side. I want to buy EV. But I suspect, like many others, I look at it objectively and I see that the technology is not quite mature enough. I've no doubt one day it will be, but not today.
- jmaker 3y ago
  In addition, there’s an immense mental burden on the driver from having to keep track of everything related to charging and planning your trip ahead. And battery capacity degrades over time, too. I have yet to find a reliable wear and tear figure to estimate when to sell the EV.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    What mental burden? I punch my destination into my nav and it tells me if & when & where I need to charge.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  I'm not on a side. I'm just saying there's no point flat out stating that things must improve when a) for a lot of people they're good enough right now, and it's about effort invested vs additional numbers of people to reach, and b) real experts are already constantly working on this.

pavlov 3y ago

> ‘charging ABSOLUTELY needs to get to a point where it's on-par with "splash and dash" in the petrol world’ People will accept some increase in inconvenience on a particular metric if the product is a lot better on other metrics. Look at mobile phones. Before the iPhone, all of them had a detachable battery. When Apple came out with a device with a glued-in battery, a lot of people were saying they would never ever buy a phone whose battery can’t be swapped out for a fresh spare. The argument was same as yours: “I can’t possibly wait ten minutes to charge if the phone dies!” Presumably 99.9% of those people now carry a smartphone with a fixed battery.

traceroute66 3y ago
> Presumably 99.9% of those people now carry a smartphone with a fixed battery. Your argument happily co-incides with the point I was making. Smartphones have matured and are now at the point where you easily get a whole day's battery life, maybe a day and a half if you don't use it much. So who cares if the battery is glued in. (And as an aside, phones also charge a lot faster than they used to). EV needs to go through the same maturity process.
- pavlov 3y ago
  But today's smartphones are still nowhere near the convenience of a 2005 Nokia phone which could go several days on one charge, and you could also swap out the battery for a spare. Phones used to do so much less, and the software was optimized to conserve energy on those limited use cases. Similarly EVs don't need to exactly reach the convenience of refueling, it just needs to be good enough in balance.
  - jmaker 3y ago
    How does that analogy apply if you’re trying to justify that one should simply give up that “convenience,” which has just been a basic notion of car driving? In my view it’s rather an inconvenience. I’d rather not have to manage that concern at all. Instead, you suggest to accept an even worse alternative? Smartphones are capable of more, not less. EVs aren’t capable of more than an ICEV, which doesn’t hold up to an analogy.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

> I need to sit in a godforsaken carpark twiddling my thumbs for 15–20 minutes You don't use the bathroom or buy coffees? With a family, that'll kill your entire 20 minutes. Food or sleep will kill even more time. And why the heck would you sit in your car while waiting? If you're driving in your car all day, a 10 minute walk every 3 hours will do wonders for your sanity and health. There's a reason commercial drivers are required by law to take a 30 minute break every 4 hours.

avar 3y ago
I'm not the GP, but I've driven a lot through western Europe, including Germany. There's two break patterns when driving a gasoline powered vehicle that I'd really miss if I had an EV: 1) More frequent but short breaks, e.g. literally a 3-4 minute break every hour. Just enough to fill up the tank, for someone to run into the bathroom etc. 2) If doing a long break (e.g. lunch with the family) do a 2-3 minute stop at a gas station before orafter, but for the stop itself drive 5-10 minutes off the main road to unwind somewhere for an hour on more. E.g. I was recently driving through the Rheine valley, and had lunch with this view, which is a 10 minute drive from the closest gas station: https://goo.gl/maps/VVXTWQDkc2F48UHe8 https://goo.gl/maps/VVXTWQDkc2F48UHe8 If I had an EV I'd have been stuck with the family in some uninviting car park at that gas station instead, and instead of a nice lunch having to pick through overpriced gas station fast food options.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  I totally understand your #2. My long drives are across Canada, and between Ottawa and Winnipeg (2200km) it's all relatively unpopulated Canadian Shield so it's rare to find a stop that isn't well treed. Most of the superchargers on the route are in "towns" with populations of about 10 and pleasant environments. Re #1: I find that those types of stops happen at the beginning of trips. If you're only an hour or two into your trip when you need to grab gasoline, you grab it quick. But with an EV you should be charging at home or at your hotel overnight, so you start out with a full battery and don't need a charge until about 4 hours in. Once you're 4 hours into a driving day, you want to stop for more than 3 minutes.