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Apple has denied those findings. > Apple said it had provided ANFR with multiple Apple and independent third-party lab results proving its compliance with all

by fh9302 3y ago

Apple has denied those findings. > Apple said it had provided ANFR with multiple Apple and independent third-party lab results proving its compliance with all applicable SAR regulations and standards in the world. https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-disputes-french-findings-says-iphone-12-complies-with-radiation-standards-2023-09-13/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-disputes-french-fin...

baz00 3y ago
This doesn't surprise me. It's not unusual to find completely different results from "accredited" labs despite the test methodologies being the same.
- mort96 3y ago
  And that shouldn't necessarily be surprising or taken as an indication of foul play. Really small incidental differences in test setup or equipment can mean different labs doing the same test get different results. I do find this difference to be surprisingly large, it's not like the threshold is 4W/kg and Apple claims they measured 3.9 and France claims they measured 4.1... But what do I know.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  How are these labs accredited? Sounds like France has a problem with some labs or possibly an accreditation organization I guess.
  - wirrbel 3y ago
    If the labs use a round robin method for validation of their testing methods the quality of their measurements should be high, shouldn’t they? In other words, who is validating apple’s labs?
    - OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago
      I have taken products through this sort of testing in a previous life. There are many hard-to-replicate factors that influence test results. For example, in my direct experience (not with phones, but networking gear), the way the product is placed in the test fixture and the way cables are dressed has an impact on emissions and measurements. In one scenario, as a product engineer supporting equipment through a certification lab, I had the mandate to pass with a 3 dB margin from the company I worked for, but, after days of testing and failing, it was decided that the equipment under test could pass with cables routed in a special way (which was not uncommon for normal customer use) and with quasi-peak detection (i.e. averaging the emission peaks) that ended up below the regulatory (FCC for example) passing below the regulatory mask/level by a fraction of a dB. I have always wondered whether a different test lab, without support from product engineers, would pass the same test. I think the answer in "no". Edit: Quasi-peaking was not a dirty trick that was pulled to pass certification. It was an acceptable method of measuring emission power suggested by the lab technicians.
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        It's the required method, in fact.
      - wirrbel 3y ago
        Thanks for the technical explanation. For a regulatory system however I would assume it’s important that a third-party that follows a standardized procedure can reproduce low emissions, otherwise who could verify that numbers were not forged? If I bring my car to the testing to the accredited testing company in Germany, they test the exhaust fume profile and give me a certificate if it’s within range. I cannot just run my own testing regime and self-issue that.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      I guess I assumed the flow would be something like: Apple wants to sell things in France. Apple submits the devices to some France-certified labs who do the test. They get an “OK” stamp, and the lab is responsible if there was a mistake in the testing. If the labs belong to Apple, then there’d just be an obvious conflict of interest, right?
Varloom 3y ago
Do you honestly expect that they would admit it and face millions of lawsuits ?
- eastbound 3y ago
  OTOH, the French regulator publishing a product removal from market ON THE DAY of the marketing PR for the new iPhone is a distasteful attempt at raining on their parade.
  - BossingAround 3y ago
    I honestly doubt literally anyone in the government cares about Apple marketing
    - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
      “The government” is big. Lots of people, caring about lots of things. Did you want to be less absolute in your claim?
      - mikae1 3y ago
        The iPhone 12 is a three year old device. I'm not sure what parade they'd be raining on.
        josephg 3y ago
        Also there’s a good chance Apple had some wiggle room in deciding the date that the iPhone 12 was pulled from the shelves. From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out.
        petemir 3y ago
        > From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out. It's even better because it's not available anymore exactly because of that reason :). You cannot get it in any (online) Apple Store, be it French or not.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
quitit 3y ago
If this sounds familiar it's because accredited labs made a similar claims about the iPhone 7/8 and then again the iPhone 11. In each case it was the lab using an incorrect methodology. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's happened here. There is a canyon of technical knowhow between RF engineers and testing labs.
- derefr 3y ago
  > There is a canyon of technical knowhow between RF engineers and testing labs. Why aren't testing labs hiring RF engineers?
  - godzillabrennus 3y ago
    They won’t get the contract from the OEM if they aren’t known for getting the results the OEM wants. Seems that with qualified people conducting the test they’d be out of business.
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      Could the exact same thing be said about whomever the French are hiring? They want to have findings or else all the money they spent ensuring compliance is effectively wasted.
      - querulous 3y ago
        that presupposes that france wants to ban the phone. charitably they just want an accurate measurement so they can apply their regulations. the lab has no incentive to find either way
        explaininjs 3y ago
        No, it presupposes this list of things unrelated to france or phones (or strictly speaking, only the last item on this list): - companies engaged in government contracts would rather continue to be engaged in government contracts than have them be terminated - politicians would prefer to say they spent your taxpayer dollars on something that caused a change which “benefited” you, rather than say they spent them on something that had no perceptible impact - there exist technicians engaged in testing who believe the above two are true, and have the capacity to make micro-decisions in testbench setup that can affect the general bias of the results That all said, based on the other commented here it seems french politicians took EU guidelines for 5mm exposure and demanded those same number at 0mm. So it really is the french politicians wanting to ban the phones.
barelysapient 3y ago
Perhaps the device the french government tested was repaired with some non-apple approved third party component?

by fh9302 3y ago

baz00 3y ago

This doesn't surprise me. It's not unusual to find completely different results from "accredited" labs despite the test methodologies being the same.

mort96 3y ago
And that shouldn't necessarily be surprising or taken as an indication of foul play. Really small incidental differences in test setup or equipment can mean different labs doing the same test get different results. I do find this difference to be surprisingly large, it's not like the threshold is 4W/kg and Apple claims they measured 3.9 and France claims they measured 4.1... But what do I know.
bee_rider 3y ago
How are these labs accredited? Sounds like France has a problem with some labs or possibly an accreditation organization I guess.
- wirrbel 3y ago
  If the labs use a round robin method for validation of their testing methods the quality of their measurements should be high, shouldn’t they? In other words, who is validating apple’s labs?
  - OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago
    I have taken products through this sort of testing in a previous life. There are many hard-to-replicate factors that influence test results. For example, in my direct experience (not with phones, but networking gear), the way the product is placed in the test fixture and the way cables are dressed has an impact on emissions and measurements. In one scenario, as a product engineer supporting equipment through a certification lab, I had the mandate to pass with a 3 dB margin from the company I worked for, but, after days of testing and failing, it was decided that the equipment under test could pass with cables routed in a special way (which was not uncommon for normal customer use) and with quasi-peak detection (i.e. averaging the emission peaks) that ended up below the regulatory (FCC for example) passing below the regulatory mask/level by a fraction of a dB. I have always wondered whether a different test lab, without support from product engineers, would pass the same test. I think the answer in "no". Edit: Quasi-peaking was not a dirty trick that was pulled to pass certification. It was an acceptable method of measuring emission power suggested by the lab technicians.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      It's the required method, in fact.
    - wirrbel 3y ago
      Thanks for the technical explanation. For a regulatory system however I would assume it’s important that a third-party that follows a standardized procedure can reproduce low emissions, otherwise who could verify that numbers were not forged? If I bring my car to the testing to the accredited testing company in Germany, they test the exhaust fume profile and give me a certificate if it’s within range. I cannot just run my own testing regime and self-issue that.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I guess I assumed the flow would be something like: Apple wants to sell things in France. Apple submits the devices to some France-certified labs who do the test. They get an “OK” stamp, and the lab is responsible if there was a mistake in the testing. If the labs belong to Apple, then there’d just be an obvious conflict of interest, right?

Varloom 3y ago

Do you honestly expect that they would admit it and face millions of lawsuits ?

eastbound 3y ago
OTOH, the French regulator publishing a product removal from market ON THE DAY of the marketing PR for the new iPhone is a distasteful attempt at raining on their parade.
- BossingAround 3y ago
  I honestly doubt literally anyone in the government cares about Apple marketing
  - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
    “The government” is big. Lots of people, caring about lots of things. Did you want to be less absolute in your claim?
    - mikae1 3y ago
      The iPhone 12 is a three year old device. I'm not sure what parade they'd be raining on.
      - josephg 3y ago
        Also there’s a good chance Apple had some wiggle room in deciding the date that the iPhone 12 was pulled from the shelves. From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out.
        petemir 3y ago
        > From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out. It's even better because it's not available anymore exactly because of that reason :). You cannot get it in any (online) Apple Store, be it French or not.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

quitit 3y ago

If this sounds familiar it's because accredited labs made a similar claims about the iPhone 7/8 and then again the iPhone 11. In each case it was the lab using an incorrect methodology. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's happened here. There is a canyon of technical knowhow between RF engineers and testing labs.

derefr 3y ago
> There is a canyon of technical knowhow between RF engineers and testing labs. Why aren't testing labs hiring RF engineers?
- godzillabrennus 3y ago
  They won’t get the contract from the OEM if they aren’t known for getting the results the OEM wants. Seems that with qualified people conducting the test they’d be out of business.
  - explaininjs 3y ago
    Could the exact same thing be said about whomever the French are hiring? They want to have findings or else all the money they spent ensuring compliance is effectively wasted.
    - querulous 3y ago
      that presupposes that france wants to ban the phone. charitably they just want an accurate measurement so they can apply their regulations. the lab has no incentive to find either way
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        No, it presupposes this list of things unrelated to france or phones (or strictly speaking, only the last item on this list): - companies engaged in government contracts would rather continue to be engaged in government contracts than have them be terminated - politicians would prefer to say they spent your taxpayer dollars on something that caused a change which “benefited” you, rather than say they spent them on something that had no perceptible impact - there exist technicians engaged in testing who believe the above two are true, and have the capacity to make micro-decisions in testbench setup that can affect the general bias of the results That all said, based on the other commented here it seems french politicians took EU guidelines for 5mm exposure and demanded those same number at 0mm. So it really is the french politicians wanting to ban the phones.

barelysapient 3y ago

Perhaps the device the french government tested was repaired with some non-apple approved third party component?