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Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep ki

Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.

zpeti 3y ago
I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
- adaml_623 3y ago
  Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
  - usrusr 3y ago
    China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
- marcyb5st 3y ago
  Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
  - zpeti 3y ago
    > Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair. So you've admitted China and India has more people, who want to consume more and produce more CO2 (don't make the mistake in thinking they are transitioning to renewables, they are adding them, but also adding shittons of coal power plants). We have 2.3bn people that WANT to consume as much as the west per capita. How is german economic suicide going to help? You bring down your own consumption for some moral reason, while completely ignoring what is happening in asia? How does that help anyone? It doesn't help the planet, it doesn't help yourself. The whole thing is some wierd suicidal virtue signalling. It makes no practical sense.
    - marcyb5st 3y ago
      It's not that they directly WANT to consume as much, is that quality of life is tied to per-capita energy expenditure. Do you WANT to compromise on your comforts to go on-par with India's average quality of living?
  - _0ffh 3y ago
    China matches Germany in per-capita CO2 also, with a rising trend as opposed to Germany's trend which has been falling for decades. https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU
- Tade0 3y ago
  > It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course. Seeing how China essentially took over global PV market share from Germany and Japan and will cross 500GW installed this year, doubling that number by 2028, I think they were already persuaded years ago - it's just that ramping up production to the scale of a 1bln+ country takes time. And they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - it's just cheaper this way.
Zingler 3y ago
Which would make more sense if they had not shutdown all their nuclear power stations, whilst still generating roughly 40% of their power with gas/coal power stations.
- notTooFarGone 3y ago
  So what do you suggest? Let's start bulding nuclear to have again in 15 years without a national industry to facilitate that? The train is LONG gone and it's economic and political suicide to start now. The whole "WhY DoN'T yOu BuIlD nUclEaR" is ignoring the large delays and over budget projects of modern reactors.
  - snehk 3y ago
    Germany literally shut down working reactors knowing that the power would have to be replaced with coal. That was known.
    - b3orn 3y ago
      And yet it wasn't replaced by coal as that is getting phased out too.
      - snehk 3y ago
        There's coal, gas and nuclear for the base load. Nuclear went away and gas got too expensive. What replaced it if not coal?
        b3orn 3y ago
        You tell me, here's the statistics for electricity generation from fossil fuels https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001111100000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
      - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
snehk 3y ago
Didn't Germany just make a law that will cost 50 billion Euro and will - in the span of six years - save the CO2 that China puts out in a day. Brilliant decision. Germany could shut down everything tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent. Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  The unsupported part of your comment is the "ruining your economy" claim. Did someone with connections to the fossil fuel industry tell you that Contracts for difference would do that? They seem to have worked well to provide cheap alternatives to fossil fuels via market based incentives in many other countries and industries. You didn't explain why you think they'll be such a disaster in this instance? Do you actually have a reason for thinking so?
- piva00 3y ago
  > Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either. Can you stop parroting the incredibly stupid line of "ruining your economy", please? It's extensively used by the oil industry lobby/propaganda to disparage any change that will affect their bottom line, you are (willingly or not) just repeating bullshit from lobbyists. And looking stupid while doing it.
  - notTooFarGone 3y ago
    Looking stupid became fashionable around 2016.

Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.

zpeti 3y ago

I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.

pelasaco 3y ago
> Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
adaml_623 3y ago
Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
- usrusr 3y ago
  China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
marcyb5st 3y ago
Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
- zpeti 3y ago
  > Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair. So you've admitted China and India has more people, who want to consume more and produce more CO2 (don't make the mistake in thinking they are transitioning to renewables, they are adding them, but also adding shittons of coal power plants). We have 2.3bn people that WANT to consume as much as the west per capita. How is german economic suicide going to help? You bring down your own consumption for some moral reason, while completely ignoring what is happening in asia? How does that help anyone? It doesn't help the planet, it doesn't help yourself. The whole thing is some wierd suicidal virtue signalling. It makes no practical sense.
  - marcyb5st 3y ago
    It's not that they directly WANT to consume as much, is that quality of life is tied to per-capita energy expenditure. Do you WANT to compromise on your comforts to go on-par with India's average quality of living?
- _0ffh 3y ago
  China matches Germany in per-capita CO2 also, with a rising trend as opposed to Germany's trend which has been falling for decades. https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU
Tade0 3y ago
> It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course. Seeing how China essentially took over global PV market share from Germany and Japan and will cross 500GW installed this year, doubling that number by 2028, I think they were already persuaded years ago - it's just that ramping up production to the scale of a 1bln+ country takes time. And they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - it's just cheaper this way.

Zingler 3y ago

Which would make more sense if they had not shutdown all their nuclear power stations, whilst still generating roughly 40% of their power with gas/coal power stations.

notTooFarGone 3y ago
So what do you suggest? Let's start bulding nuclear to have again in 15 years without a national industry to facilitate that? The train is LONG gone and it's economic and political suicide to start now. The whole "WhY DoN'T yOu BuIlD nUclEaR" is ignoring the large delays and over budget projects of modern reactors.
- snehk 3y ago
  Germany literally shut down working reactors knowing that the power would have to be replaced with coal. That was known.
  - b3orn 3y ago
    And yet it wasn't replaced by coal as that is getting phased out too.
    - snehk 3y ago
      There's coal, gas and nuclear for the base load. Nuclear went away and gas got too expensive. What replaced it if not coal?
      - b3orn 3y ago
        You tell me, here's the statistics for electricity generation from fossil fuels https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001111100000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
    - ZeroGravitas 3y ago

snehk 3y ago

Didn't Germany just make a law that will cost 50 billion Euro and will - in the span of six years - save the CO2 that China puts out in a day. Brilliant decision. Germany could shut down everything tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent. Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
The unsupported part of your comment is the "ruining your economy" claim. Did someone with connections to the fossil fuel industry tell you that Contracts for difference would do that? They seem to have worked well to provide cheap alternatives to fossil fuels via market based incentives in many other countries and industries. You didn't explain why you think they'll be such a disaster in this instance? Do you actually have a reason for thinking so?
piva00 3y ago
> Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either. Can you stop parroting the incredibly stupid line of "ruining your economy", please? It's extensively used by the oil industry lobby/propaganda to disparage any change that will affect their bottom line, you are (willingly or not) just repeating bullshit from lobbyists. And looking stupid while doing it.
- notTooFarGone 3y ago
  Looking stupid became fashionable around 2016.