7 ms·

Can someone please explain to me, in an objective non political way what German leadership is actually doing in the last 3-4 years? It seems like complete econ

by zpeti 3y ago

Can someone please explain to me, in an objective non political way what German leadership is actually doing in the last 3-4 years? It seems like complete economic suicide to me, and they are just doubling down all the time. I can morally understand not using russian energy, but the consequences of this seem to have been completely ignored. Even worse, all nuclear has been shut down, doubling down on dependence on outside powers like the US, middle east, and france. All this in the name of green energy, arriving at loads more coal production and political dependence. Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. Why? Why?? Recent german industrial production data for reference: https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594 https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
firecall 3y ago
Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.
- zpeti 3y ago
  I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    > Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
  - adaml_623 3y ago
    Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
    - usrusr 3y ago
      China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
  - marcyb5st 3y ago
    Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
    - zpeti 3y ago
      > Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair. So you've admitted China and India has more people, who want to consume more and produce more CO2 (don't make the mistake in thinking they are transitioning to renewables, they are adding them, but also adding shittons of coal power plants). We have 2.3bn people that WANT to consume as much as the west per capita. How is german economic suicide going to help? You bring down your own consumption for some moral reason, while completely ignoring what is happening in asia? How does that help anyone? It doesn't help the planet, it doesn't help yourself. The whole thing is some wierd suicidal virtue signalling. It makes no practical sense.
      - marcyb5st 3y ago
        It's not that they directly WANT to consume as much, is that quality of life is tied to per-capita energy expenditure. Do you WANT to compromise on your comforts to go on-par with India's average quality of living?
    - _0ffh 3y ago
      China matches Germany in per-capita CO2 also, with a rising trend as opposed to Germany's trend which has been falling for decades. https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU
  - Tade0 3y ago
    > It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course. Seeing how China essentially took over global PV market share from Germany and Japan and will cross 500GW installed this year, doubling that number by 2028, I think they were already persuaded years ago - it's just that ramping up production to the scale of a 1bln+ country takes time. And they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - it's just cheaper this way.
- Zingler 3y ago
  Which would make more sense if they had not shutdown all their nuclear power stations, whilst still generating roughly 40% of their power with gas/coal power stations.
  - notTooFarGone 3y ago
    So what do you suggest? Let's start bulding nuclear to have again in 15 years without a national industry to facilitate that? The train is LONG gone and it's economic and political suicide to start now. The whole "WhY DoN'T yOu BuIlD nUclEaR" is ignoring the large delays and over budget projects of modern reactors.
    - snehk 3y ago
      Germany literally shut down working reactors knowing that the power would have to be replaced with coal. That was known.
      - b3orn 3y ago
        And yet it wasn't replaced by coal as that is getting phased out too.
        snehk 3y ago
        There's coal, gas and nuclear for the base load. Nuclear went away and gas got too expensive. What replaced it if not coal?
        b3orn 3y ago
        You tell me, here's the statistics for electricity generation from fossil fuels https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001111100000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
        ZeroGravitas 3y ago
- snehk 3y ago
  Didn't Germany just make a law that will cost 50 billion Euro and will - in the span of six years - save the CO2 that China puts out in a day. Brilliant decision. Germany could shut down everything tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent. Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    The unsupported part of your comment is the "ruining your economy" claim. Did someone with connections to the fossil fuel industry tell you that Contracts for difference would do that? They seem to have worked well to provide cheap alternatives to fossil fuels via market based incentives in many other countries and industries. You didn't explain why you think they'll be such a disaster in this instance? Do you actually have a reason for thinking so?
  - piva00 3y ago
    > Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either. Can you stop parroting the incredibly stupid line of "ruining your economy", please? It's extensively used by the oil industry lobby/propaganda to disparage any change that will affect their bottom line, you are (willingly or not) just repeating bullshit from lobbyists. And looking stupid while doing it.
    - notTooFarGone 3y ago
      Looking stupid became fashionable around 2016.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
adrianN 3y ago
Economic suicide would be continuing with business as usual and leaving all growth markets to the Chinese. What we’re trying to do is forcing companies who have grown fat on milking innovations from decades ago into adapting to the global market realities.
- zpeti 3y ago
  I mean, china is also committing economic suicide, so at least there's that...
  - candiodari 3y ago
    But don't you see the wisdom in joining China's suicide, rather than just waiting it out?
chess_buster 3y ago
We're replacing coal, nuclear and fossil gas with solar, wind, and storage (in form of compressed air, batteries, and power2gas). Once this has been completed, we're free from buying coal, uranium (Russia? Niger?), or gas and stop emitting large amounts of C02 due to the burning of fossil fuels.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "Once this has been completed" Especially the "storage" part is really far in the future, certainly not by 2030 or so. Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. The sun may shine for free, but no one escapes a thorough entanglement in global trade networks nowadays.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    > Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. Bought a 115Wp rated solar panel earlier this year, made in China. For the foreseeable future (years, or 20y+ rated lifespan of such a panel), I can generate power from that panel without making ANY additional purchases. At the end of that lifespan, market conditions will be very, very different from today. How does that "make me dependent on China, etc"? Any renewable installed = long-term, independent power generating capacity obtained. Regardless where initial materials came from. Dependency is hitting gas station every day & not being able to move car when oil company fails to supply gas station. Long term investments like solar panels don't work like that.
martin_a 3y ago
> in an objective non political way While your whole post implicates that you are leaning to the conservatice spectrum, I will try to be as objective as possible. Germany has been ruled by conservative governments for the last 16 years. These governments have hindered innovation (see German internet speeds for example) and lobbyists made sure that nothing changed in regards of mobility, energy, city building and whatnot. The russian attack on Ukraine has made clear that dependency on foreign states is not a good idea and that we have to act on that swiftly. Acting swiftly comes with a cost for the moment for sure. Energy prices are already falling though for example, renewables are being build, probably like never before, see [1] at the bottom, and dependency on fossil fuels is being reduced steadily. That could have been done slowly over the last 16 years, but conservatice politicians were busy doing... I don't know what. Nuclear is and was never a viable option. While fans of this technology are repeating it over and over, the German reactors were EOL. Also: The energy companies were only able to run those reactors because that has been subsidized in different ways. The economic downturn is somewhat more complicated, I think. Lots of companies have used the pandemic to rise prices. While that might have been a real issue due to logistics during the pandemic, right now it's only greedflation with companies rising prices "because they can". That hits companies as well as persons and leads to people being more frugal and results in the economic downturn. The "downturn" also might be a more realistic view of the situation, as the current government is not that leaned towards pampering businesses and lobbyists as the former ones. Former growth is in parts the result of subsidizing, tax reductions, low interest rates etc. These are all valid measurements to boost an economy, but someone has to pay the price for that. Now, there's also a price to pay for modernizing the country at a larger scale and businesses have to pay their share, too. I think that's only fair. [1]: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie...
- snowpid 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - martin_a 3y ago
    Be respectful and talk English. And do you think it's unobjective to think that the conservative governements of the past have missed to lay the foundations? We're sitting on our slow copper cable internet, due to Helmut fucking Kohl in the late 80s. Since then nobody has made any effort to improve the infrastructure significantly. Instead the Deutsche Post was privatized and now the Telekom has obviously no incentive to lay fiber for fast internet, especially in the rural areas, when they can milk their customers on the copper cables. And that's just one example of how past governments have failed the people. On the other hand it's just funny _how much_ the new government is said to have run this country against the wall after taking over. I'd love if they had done that much at all.
b3orn 3y ago
> arriving at loads more coal production Where is this "fact" coming from? Coal is being phased out. Numbers for last year increased slightly, but that was due to gas, not nuclear shutdowns. For this year coal usage is on track to being at 2020 levels, which was an outlier year. Source: https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001010000000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
klaustopher 3y ago
Most German energy imports are actually from Denmark, which is mostly wind energy [1]. Gas now mostly comes from Norway. [2] Don't know why you say we rely on France or even the US and the middle east? [1]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-agreement-joint-offshore-wind-project-bornholm-energy-island https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-ag... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-stand-gas-supply-2023-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-s...
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
To be fair, Germany economy was already fucked, but the energy transition is accelerating the inevitable. Germany is the last of the industry-based economies in Europe and this while simultaneously being the country with the highest energy prices. That situation was never going to last. The energy prices will remain high for many decades even if a successful energy transition might bring them down eventually, so industry has been relocating outside of the country anyway. The transition to EVs has only made matters worse. A lot of German industry is being made redundant. And Germany in 2023 is still skeptical of the digital age and a service based economy. So yeah, the future is not bright either way. But what the government is doing is partly ideology based and partly, I believe, the personal ambition of the economy minister himself. I think the American approach is much more sane and they will probably still end up being the global leaders of green energy tech.
- martin_a 3y ago
  > The energy prices will remain high for many decades Bullshit. You can get a new contract for 30 Cent/kWh right now. That's the same price as in 2017 [1]. [1]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikationen/Energiepreise/energiepreisentwicklung-pdf-5619001.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikat... Page 47
V__ 3y ago
There is a bit more nuance to this. The nuclear shutdown was a reaction to the changing sentiment regarding nuclear power after Fukushima (An overreaction in my opinion). It was decided to slowly phase nuclear power out (until 2020) and invest more in renewables. This was a rare occasion where basically all parties were happy. Greens because green and the rest because it made them look like listening to the popular mood at the time, with 80% being in favor [1]. Of course, as is tradition in the last decades, the law was done quickly, but the investing part was somehow forgotten. Instead, if investing in renewables, the reliance on Russian gas was increased (Insert joke about irony here). Now it's 2021 and a new government is elected. Covid just ended and the war in Ukraine started. The nuclear plants are one-by-one shutting down, but the ones running are getting very costly extensions to have reserves. They are old, have not been maintained (because they were shutting down) and are too expensive, and energy companies don't want to keep them online anymore. The underinvestments so far take revenge. The reliance on Russia is now seen as a big mistake. In a years time, Germany changed that reliance (under a green minister's leadership, no less) by building LNG terminals and diversifying sources [2]. While still having the long-term goal of not getting in such a situation again. However, Germany is extremely expanding wind and solar, with the goal of having 80% coming from renewable sources by 2030 [3].Right now, electricity pricing has nearly reached 2021 level and is continuing to fall. Gas is still higher but there is a big push for industries to change to hydrogen where possible. > every german older household is forced to change their heater Long term yes. If you need a new heater which can't be repaired, you need to get a heat pump. This will be subsidized. This will lessen outside reliance and be a part in taking climate action. > It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. I think that is a bit harsh. It's more that decades of ignoring problems and not investing have culminated in a bad situation. Neoliberalism has created immense investment bottlenecks, and Germany was lucky to survive that long. Now they have a lot of catching up to do. Which won't be easy, in no small part because Germany is not allowed to take on new debt (constitutional amendment) and raising taxes is a now go, because neoliberalism. So yeah.. [1] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/dt1104_bericht.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_u... [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2023/20230105_RueckblickGas2022.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... [3] https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimaschutz/energiewende-beschleunigen-2040310 https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimasch...
klaustopher 3y ago
> Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. This is also simply not true. You are not allowed to install new heatings that burn gas or oil. Wood pellets, heat pump, etc, all allowed. If you have a working heating, nobody is forcing you to rip it out. You are allowed to have repairs if it stops working. If it completely breaks down, there is also possibilities to get exemptions if i.e. a heat pump is not feasible. Maybe take a look at the actual law and not what some media is trying to read into the law.
- input_sh 3y ago
  I don't know if the oil industry's astroturfing is absolutely amazing or if people intentionally don't want to understand, but I swear every single legal step taken towards reducing our reliance on fossil fuels anywhere in the Western world is always filled to the brim with people misunderstanding what the law actually means.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  But then it will lead to having less spare parts, less people learning the job of gas heater repair. You will kill the Market around Gas Heaters, you let the work force die and then you force indirectly people to move to heat pump. I have heat pump myself as long as solar energy, but I can see that even though it's true that nobody is forcing to, understanding how the market works, it is easier to see how it will be in the next years: We will just find people specialized in Heat Pump, it will be easier to install a new Heat pump than repair and maintain your older heater.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by zpeti 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

firecall 3y ago

Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.

zpeti 3y ago
I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
- adaml_623 3y ago
  Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
  - usrusr 3y ago
    China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
- marcyb5st 3y ago
  Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
  - zpeti 3y ago
    > Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair. So you've admitted China and India has more people, who want to consume more and produce more CO2 (don't make the mistake in thinking they are transitioning to renewables, they are adding them, but also adding shittons of coal power plants). We have 2.3bn people that WANT to consume as much as the west per capita. How is german economic suicide going to help? You bring down your own consumption for some moral reason, while completely ignoring what is happening in asia? How does that help anyone? It doesn't help the planet, it doesn't help yourself. The whole thing is some wierd suicidal virtue signalling. It makes no practical sense.
    - marcyb5st 3y ago
      It's not that they directly WANT to consume as much, is that quality of life is tied to per-capita energy expenditure. Do you WANT to compromise on your comforts to go on-par with India's average quality of living?
  - _0ffh 3y ago
    China matches Germany in per-capita CO2 also, with a rising trend as opposed to Germany's trend which has been falling for decades. https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china?country=CHN~DEU
- Tade0 3y ago
  > It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course. Seeing how China essentially took over global PV market share from Germany and Japan and will cross 500GW installed this year, doubling that number by 2028, I think they were already persuaded years ago - it's just that ramping up production to the scale of a 1bln+ country takes time. And they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - it's just cheaper this way.
Zingler 3y ago
Which would make more sense if they had not shutdown all their nuclear power stations, whilst still generating roughly 40% of their power with gas/coal power stations.
- notTooFarGone 3y ago
  So what do you suggest? Let's start bulding nuclear to have again in 15 years without a national industry to facilitate that? The train is LONG gone and it's economic and political suicide to start now. The whole "WhY DoN'T yOu BuIlD nUclEaR" is ignoring the large delays and over budget projects of modern reactors.
  - snehk 3y ago
    Germany literally shut down working reactors knowing that the power would have to be replaced with coal. That was known.
    - b3orn 3y ago
      And yet it wasn't replaced by coal as that is getting phased out too.
      - snehk 3y ago
        There's coal, gas and nuclear for the base load. Nuclear went away and gas got too expensive. What replaced it if not coal?
        b3orn 3y ago
        You tell me, here's the statistics for electricity generation from fossil fuels https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001111100000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
      - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
snehk 3y ago
Didn't Germany just make a law that will cost 50 billion Euro and will - in the span of six years - save the CO2 that China puts out in a day. Brilliant decision. Germany could shut down everything tomorrow and it wouldn't make a dent. Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  The unsupported part of your comment is the "ruining your economy" claim. Did someone with connections to the fossil fuel industry tell you that Contracts for difference would do that? They seem to have worked well to provide cheap alternatives to fossil fuels via market based incentives in many other countries and industries. You didn't explain why you think they'll be such a disaster in this instance? Do you actually have a reason for thinking so?
- piva00 3y ago
  > Not making a dent _and_ ruining your economy will not make anyone follow your lead either. Can you stop parroting the incredibly stupid line of "ruining your economy", please? It's extensively used by the oil industry lobby/propaganda to disparage any change that will affect their bottom line, you are (willingly or not) just repeating bullshit from lobbyists. And looking stupid while doing it.
  - notTooFarGone 3y ago
    Looking stupid became fashionable around 2016.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

adrianN 3y ago

Economic suicide would be continuing with business as usual and leaving all growth markets to the Chinese. What we’re trying to do is forcing companies who have grown fat on milking innovations from decades ago into adapting to the global market realities.

zpeti 3y ago
I mean, china is also committing economic suicide, so at least there's that...
- candiodari 3y ago
  But don't you see the wisdom in joining China's suicide, rather than just waiting it out?

chess_buster 3y ago

We're replacing coal, nuclear and fossil gas with solar, wind, and storage (in form of compressed air, batteries, and power2gas). Once this has been completed, we're free from buying coal, uranium (Russia? Niger?), or gas and stop emitting large amounts of C02 due to the burning of fossil fuels.

inglor_cz 3y ago
"Once this has been completed" Especially the "storage" part is really far in the future, certainly not by 2030 or so. Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. The sun may shine for free, but no one escapes a thorough entanglement in global trade networks nowadays.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  > Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. Bought a 115Wp rated solar panel earlier this year, made in China. For the foreseeable future (years, or 20y+ rated lifespan of such a panel), I can generate power from that panel without making ANY additional purchases. At the end of that lifespan, market conditions will be very, very different from today. How does that "make me dependent on China, etc"? Any renewable installed = long-term, independent power generating capacity obtained. Regardless where initial materials came from. Dependency is hitting gas station every day & not being able to move car when oil company fails to supply gas station. Long term investments like solar panels don't work like that.

martin_a 3y ago

> in an objective non political way While your whole post implicates that you are leaning to the conservatice spectrum, I will try to be as objective as possible. Germany has been ruled by conservative governments for the last 16 years. These governments have hindered innovation (see German internet speeds for example) and lobbyists made sure that nothing changed in regards of mobility, energy, city building and whatnot. The russian attack on Ukraine has made clear that dependency on foreign states is not a good idea and that we have to act on that swiftly. Acting swiftly comes with a cost for the moment for sure. Energy prices are already falling though for example, renewables are being build, probably like never before, see [1] at the bottom, and dependency on fossil fuels is being reduced steadily. That could have been done slowly over the last 16 years, but conservatice politicians were busy doing... I don't know what. Nuclear is and was never a viable option. While fans of this technology are repeating it over and over, the German reactors were EOL. Also: The energy companies were only able to run those reactors because that has been subsidized in different ways. The economic downturn is somewhat more complicated, I think. Lots of companies have used the pandemic to rise prices. While that might have been a real issue due to logistics during the pandemic, right now it's only greedflation with companies rising prices "because they can". That hits companies as well as persons and leads to people being more frugal and results in the economic downturn. The "downturn" also might be a more realistic view of the situation, as the current government is not that leaned towards pampering businesses and lobbyists as the former ones. Former growth is in parts the result of subsidizing, tax reductions, low interest rates etc. These are all valid measurements to boost an economy, but someone has to pay the price for that. Now, there's also a price to pay for modernizing the country at a larger scale and businesses have to pay their share, too. I think that's only fair. [1]: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie...

snowpid 3y ago
[flagged]
- martin_a 3y ago
  Be respectful and talk English. And do you think it's unobjective to think that the conservative governements of the past have missed to lay the foundations? We're sitting on our slow copper cable internet, due to Helmut fucking Kohl in the late 80s. Since then nobody has made any effort to improve the infrastructure significantly. Instead the Deutsche Post was privatized and now the Telekom has obviously no incentive to lay fiber for fast internet, especially in the rural areas, when they can milk their customers on the copper cables. And that's just one example of how past governments have failed the people. On the other hand it's just funny _how much_ the new government is said to have run this country against the wall after taking over. I'd love if they had done that much at all.

b3orn 3y ago

> arriving at loads more coal production Where is this "fact" coming from? Coal is being phased out. Numbers for last year increased slightly, but that was due to gas, not nuclear shutdowns. For this year coal usage is on track to being at 2020 levels, which was an outlier year. Source: https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001010000000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...

klaustopher 3y ago

Most German energy imports are actually from Denmark, which is mostly wind energy [1]. Gas now mostly comes from Norway. [2] Don't know why you say we rely on France or even the US and the middle east? [1]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-agreement-joint-offshore-wind-project-bornholm-energy-island https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-ag... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-stand-gas-supply-2023-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-s...

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

To be fair, Germany economy was already fucked, but the energy transition is accelerating the inevitable. Germany is the last of the industry-based economies in Europe and this while simultaneously being the country with the highest energy prices. That situation was never going to last. The energy prices will remain high for many decades even if a successful energy transition might bring them down eventually, so industry has been relocating outside of the country anyway. The transition to EVs has only made matters worse. A lot of German industry is being made redundant. And Germany in 2023 is still skeptical of the digital age and a service based economy. So yeah, the future is not bright either way. But what the government is doing is partly ideology based and partly, I believe, the personal ambition of the economy minister himself. I think the American approach is much more sane and they will probably still end up being the global leaders of green energy tech.

martin_a 3y ago
> The energy prices will remain high for many decades Bullshit. You can get a new contract for 30 Cent/kWh right now. That's the same price as in 2017 [1]. [1]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikationen/Energiepreise/energiepreisentwicklung-pdf-5619001.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikat... Page 47

V__ 3y ago

There is a bit more nuance to this. The nuclear shutdown was a reaction to the changing sentiment regarding nuclear power after Fukushima (An overreaction in my opinion). It was decided to slowly phase nuclear power out (until 2020) and invest more in renewables. This was a rare occasion where basically all parties were happy. Greens because green and the rest because it made them look like listening to the popular mood at the time, with 80% being in favor [1]. Of course, as is tradition in the last decades, the law was done quickly, but the investing part was somehow forgotten. Instead, if investing in renewables, the reliance on Russian gas was increased (Insert joke about irony here). Now it's 2021 and a new government is elected. Covid just ended and the war in Ukraine started. The nuclear plants are one-by-one shutting down, but the ones running are getting very costly extensions to have reserves. They are old, have not been maintained (because they were shutting down) and are too expensive, and energy companies don't want to keep them online anymore. The underinvestments so far take revenge. The reliance on Russia is now seen as a big mistake. In a years time, Germany changed that reliance (under a green minister's leadership, no less) by building LNG terminals and diversifying sources [2]. While still having the long-term goal of not getting in such a situation again. However, Germany is extremely expanding wind and solar, with the goal of having 80% coming from renewable sources by 2030 [3].Right now, electricity pricing has nearly reached 2021 level and is continuing to fall. Gas is still higher but there is a big push for industries to change to hydrogen where possible. > every german older household is forced to change their heater Long term yes. If you need a new heater which can't be repaired, you need to get a heat pump. This will be subsidized. This will lessen outside reliance and be a part in taking climate action. > It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. I think that is a bit harsh. It's more that decades of ignoring problems and not investing have culminated in a bad situation. Neoliberalism has created immense investment bottlenecks, and Germany was lucky to survive that long. Now they have a lot of catching up to do. Which won't be easy, in no small part because Germany is not allowed to take on new debt (constitutional amendment) and raising taxes is a now go, because neoliberalism. So yeah.. [1] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/dt1104_bericht.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_u... [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2023/20230105_RueckblickGas2022.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... [3] https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimaschutz/energiewende-beschleunigen-2040310 https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimasch...

klaustopher 3y ago

> Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. This is also simply not true. You are not allowed to install new heatings that burn gas or oil. Wood pellets, heat pump, etc, all allowed. If you have a working heating, nobody is forcing you to rip it out. You are allowed to have repairs if it stops working. If it completely breaks down, there is also possibilities to get exemptions if i.e. a heat pump is not feasible. Maybe take a look at the actual law and not what some media is trying to read into the law.

input_sh 3y ago
I don't know if the oil industry's astroturfing is absolutely amazing or if people intentionally don't want to understand, but I swear every single legal step taken towards reducing our reliance on fossil fuels anywhere in the Western world is always filled to the brim with people misunderstanding what the law actually means.
pelasaco 3y ago
But then it will lead to having less spare parts, less people learning the job of gas heater repair. You will kill the Market around Gas Heaters, you let the work force die and then you force indirectly people to move to heat pump. I have heat pump myself as long as solar energy, but I can see that even though it's true that nobody is forcing to, understanding how the market works, it is easier to see how it will be in the next years: We will just find people specialized in Heat Pump, it will be easier to install a new Heat pump than repair and maintain your older heater.

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