4 ms·

In the US military, particularly during initial training, collective punishment is often used in addition to or even in lieu of individual punishment. For exam

by efitz 3y ago

In the US military, particularly during initial training, collective punishment is often used in addition to or even in lieu of individual punishment. For example, if one soldier misbehaves, the whole unit has to do extra pushups or gets their weekend pass revoked. This is effective at getting groups of people to help enforce conformance to rules on individuals who are less concerned with the consequences of their individual actions. Perversely, some governments reward terrorists’ (and other criminals’) families with monthly stipends[1]. Me of 20 years ago would probably be shocked at me nowadays, but I’ve slowly come around to thinking that only those who substantially share a moral framework with me deserve to be treated in that framework, and those who choose to act in a radically different moral framework probably deserve to be treated under that framework. In other words, I refuse to let my moral framework be used as a tool to harm me. So I am not horrified by the discussion of family retribution and don’t automatically reject the idea without consideration. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyr...

misja111 3y ago
Although less explicitly, collective punishment is used in the office as well. For instance by letting an entire team work overtime if one of the team members screwed up his work and made the team miss a deadline. But the fact that collective punishment is used in some places doesn't automatically make it right, IMO.
- wishpishh 3y ago
  I don't see how that is "punishment". A team is a group of people helping each other to achieve a common goal. Sometimes other team members will screw up and you will step in and do what you can to help the team overcome this. Other times that member is going to be you, and then your teammates will (hopefully) step in to cover your ass.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > Although less explicitly, collective punishment is used in the office as well. For instance by letting an entire team work overtime if one of the team members screwed up his work and made the team miss a deadline. A "good" idea (*sarc*) to either - decrease the team cohesion (i.e. make the team members hate each other) or - increase the team cohesion in the face of a "common enemy" (the boss) who all of the team members will from now on hate Both of these are likely not what a boss desires.
- wvh 3y ago
  Is that collective punishment, or putting the end goal before other concerns? I would hope most managers do not want to punish workers, but will insist things need to get done, and done well, in time and on budget. It's the subtle balance that is the challenge if you want to be a good boss.
Almondsetat 3y ago
social conformity is the easiest type of human control, once you get enough people on board. unfortunately it all comes apart when the social rules have to change and you are faced with a majority of the population that has grown up and solidified their views and will not budge
bhickey 3y ago
It's baffling that the writer either overlooked or ignored this. Collective punishment transfers the cost of enforcement from the ruler to the ruled. We don't need florid nonsense[0] or baby Hitler hypotheticals to explain it. The Nazis didn't engage in reprisals[1,2] on the basis of moral philosophy. One practical motivation was to alienate resistance from the remainder of the population. [0] What’s clear is that when rulers enforce family punishments, the ruled shiver with terror. Don’t tell me these tactics don’t work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kondomari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kondomari
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  These tactics don't work because both sides will just go colonel Kurtz and spiral into endless depravity. The CIA tried their mind ops from Vietnam to Nicaragua and their enemies never cowered.
  - bhickey 3y ago
    Yep. Look at the failure of terror bombing campaigns. Rather than demoralizing civilian populations, it hardens their resolve to fight from London to Kyiv.
HeckFeck 3y ago
> I’ve slowly come around to thinking that only those who substantially share a moral framework with me deserve to be treated in that framework Indeed. You can only get burned so many times by people who treat values and virtues like command words, expecting you to fall into place and obey, but never budging themselves when you reverse the challenge.
maxerickson 3y ago
but I’ve slowly come around to thinking that only those who substantially share a moral framework with me deserve to be treated in that framework, and those who choose to act in a radically different moral framework probably deserve to be treated under that framework. In other words, I refuse to let my moral framework be used as a tool to harm me. It's incoherent to exclude this from your own moral framework.
danbruc 3y ago
Perversely, some governments reward terrorists’ (and other criminals’) families with monthly stipends. That is a very one-sided point of view. Do you think the people you call terrorists - and people sympathizing with them - think of themselves as terrorists? And even if they do, do you think they think terrorism is bad in their situation? Were the people blowing up a bomb next to Hitler terrorists and was what they did bad? I bet Hitler and Stauffenberg will have quite different opinions on that.
tomp 3y ago
> Perversely, some governments reward terrorists’ (and other criminals’) families with monthly stipends[1]. Well you're stretching the argument here. Arguably Palestinian government doesn't view those that attack Israelis as "terrorists or criminals".
pyrale 3y ago
> So I am not horrified by the discussion of family retribution and don’t automatically reject the idea without consideration. You should trot your idea around a a thought experiment where members of a family ascribe to different morale frameworks.
Attrecomet 3y ago
Isn't collective punishment in boot camp primarily used as a tool to increase the group cohesion of the trainees? In that case, it doesn't really fit into the other use cases, and must be argued against individually. I'm not sure about the actual utility, but in abstract, it fits quite well to my impression of how humans, especially in small, "hunter-gatherer band sized", groups, work. And the military has a special need to create cohesion in its military that goes beyond what would be even vaguely acceptable in any liberal democracy for the general population. Especially in the special case of a criminal: which government would be stupid enough to increase the group cohesion of a dangerous criminal's family (including this criminal)?

by efitz 3y ago

misja111 3y ago

Although less explicitly, collective punishment is used in the office as well. For instance by letting an entire team work overtime if one of the team members screwed up his work and made the team miss a deadline. But the fact that collective punishment is used in some places doesn't automatically make it right, IMO.

wishpishh 3y ago
I don't see how that is "punishment". A team is a group of people helping each other to achieve a common goal. Sometimes other team members will screw up and you will step in and do what you can to help the team overcome this. Other times that member is going to be you, and then your teammates will (hopefully) step in to cover your ass.
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> Although less explicitly, collective punishment is used in the office as well. For instance by letting an entire team work overtime if one of the team members screwed up his work and made the team miss a deadline. A "good" idea (*sarc*) to either - decrease the team cohesion (i.e. make the team members hate each other) or - increase the team cohesion in the face of a "common enemy" (the boss) who all of the team members will from now on hate Both of these are likely not what a boss desires.
wvh 3y ago
Is that collective punishment, or putting the end goal before other concerns? I would hope most managers do not want to punish workers, but will insist things need to get done, and done well, in time and on budget. It's the subtle balance that is the challenge if you want to be a good boss.

Almondsetat 3y ago

social conformity is the easiest type of human control, once you get enough people on board. unfortunately it all comes apart when the social rules have to change and you are faced with a majority of the population that has grown up and solidified their views and will not budge

bhickey 3y ago

It's baffling that the writer either overlooked or ignored this. Collective punishment transfers the cost of enforcement from the ruler to the ruled. We don't need florid nonsense[0] or baby Hitler hypotheticals to explain it. The Nazis didn't engage in reprisals[1,2] on the basis of moral philosophy. One practical motivation was to alienate resistance from the remainder of the population. [0] What’s clear is that when rulers enforce family punishments, the ruled shiver with terror. Don’t tell me these tactics don’t work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kondomari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Kondomari

WeylandYutani 3y ago
These tactics don't work because both sides will just go colonel Kurtz and spiral into endless depravity. The CIA tried their mind ops from Vietnam to Nicaragua and their enemies never cowered.
- bhickey 3y ago
  Yep. Look at the failure of terror bombing campaigns. Rather than demoralizing civilian populations, it hardens their resolve to fight from London to Kyiv.

HeckFeck 3y ago

> I’ve slowly come around to thinking that only those who substantially share a moral framework with me deserve to be treated in that framework Indeed. You can only get burned so many times by people who treat values and virtues like command words, expecting you to fall into place and obey, but never budging themselves when you reverse the challenge.

maxerickson 3y ago

but I’ve slowly come around to thinking that only those who substantially share a moral framework with me deserve to be treated in that framework, and those who choose to act in a radically different moral framework probably deserve to be treated under that framework. In other words, I refuse to let my moral framework be used as a tool to harm me. It's incoherent to exclude this from your own moral framework.

danbruc 3y ago

Perversely, some governments reward terrorists’ (and other criminals’) families with monthly stipends. That is a very one-sided point of view. Do you think the people you call terrorists - and people sympathizing with them - think of themselves as terrorists? And even if they do, do you think they think terrorism is bad in their situation? Were the people blowing up a bomb next to Hitler terrorists and was what they did bad? I bet Hitler and Stauffenberg will have quite different opinions on that.

tomp 3y ago

> Perversely, some governments reward terrorists’ (and other criminals’) families with monthly stipends[1]. Well you're stretching the argument here. Arguably Palestinian government doesn't view those that attack Israelis as "terrorists or criminals".

pyrale 3y ago

> So I am not horrified by the discussion of family retribution and don’t automatically reject the idea without consideration. You should trot your idea around a a thought experiment where members of a family ascribe to different morale frameworks.

Attrecomet 3y ago

Isn't collective punishment in boot camp primarily used as a tool to increase the group cohesion of the trainees? In that case, it doesn't really fit into the other use cases, and must be argued against individually. I'm not sure about the actual utility, but in abstract, it fits quite well to my impression of how humans, especially in small, "hunter-gatherer band sized", groups, work. And the military has a special need to create cohesion in its military that goes beyond what would be even vaguely acceptable in any liberal democracy for the general population. Especially in the special case of a criminal: which government would be stupid enough to increase the group cohesion of a dangerous criminal's family (including this criminal)?