9 ms·

Germany Will Force 80% of Gas Stations to Install EV Chargers

45 points by raybb 3y ago

Borrible 3y ago
Hope German gas station tenants make more in their main business because of that. Sweets, snacks and drinks... They're doomed no question, this will only speed it up.
- glogla 3y ago
  The common wisdom is that gas stations already make most money on sweets, snacks and drinks. Becoming charging stations might even improve it.
zpeti 3y ago
Can someone please explain to me, in an objective non political way what German leadership is actually doing in the last 3-4 years? It seems like complete economic suicide to me, and they are just doubling down all the time. I can morally understand not using russian energy, but the consequences of this seem to have been completely ignored. Even worse, all nuclear has been shut down, doubling down on dependence on outside powers like the US, middle east, and france. All this in the name of green energy, arriving at loads more coal production and political dependence. Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. Why? Why?? Recent german industrial production data for reference: https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594 https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594
- deleted 3y ago
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- firecall 3y ago
  Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.
  - zpeti 3y ago
    I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.
    - pelasaco 3y ago
      > Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
    - adaml_623 3y ago
      Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
      - usrusr 3y ago
        China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
    - marcyb5st 3y ago
      Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
      - 3y ago
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- adrianN 3y ago
  Economic suicide would be continuing with business as usual and leaving all growth markets to the Chinese. What we’re trying to do is forcing companies who have grown fat on milking innovations from decades ago into adapting to the global market realities.
  - zpeti 3y ago
    I mean, china is also committing economic suicide, so at least there's that...
    - candiodari 3y ago
      But don't you see the wisdom in joining China's suicide, rather than just waiting it out?
- chess_buster 3y ago
  We're replacing coal, nuclear and fossil gas with solar, wind, and storage (in form of compressed air, batteries, and power2gas). Once this has been completed, we're free from buying coal, uranium (Russia? Niger?), or gas and stop emitting large amounts of C02 due to the burning of fossil fuels.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    "Once this has been completed" Especially the "storage" part is really far in the future, certainly not by 2030 or so. Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. The sun may shine for free, but no one escapes a thorough entanglement in global trade networks nowadays.
    - RetroTechie 3y ago
      > Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. Bought a 115Wp rated solar panel earlier this year, made in China. For the foreseeable future (years, or 20y+ rated lifespan of such a panel), I can generate power from that panel without making ANY additional purchases. At the end of that lifespan, market conditions will be very, very different from today. How does that "make me dependent on China, etc"? Any renewable installed = long-term, independent power generating capacity obtained. Regardless where initial materials came from. Dependency is hitting gas station every day & not being able to move car when oil company fails to supply gas station. Long term investments like solar panels don't work like that.
- martin_a 3y ago
  > in an objective non political way While your whole post implicates that you are leaning to the conservatice spectrum, I will try to be as objective as possible. Germany has been ruled by conservative governments for the last 16 years. These governments have hindered innovation (see German internet speeds for example) and lobbyists made sure that nothing changed in regards of mobility, energy, city building and whatnot. The russian attack on Ukraine has made clear that dependency on foreign states is not a good idea and that we have to act on that swiftly. Acting swiftly comes with a cost for the moment for sure. Energy prices are already falling though for example, renewables are being build, probably like never before, see [1] at the bottom, and dependency on fossil fuels is being reduced steadily. That could have been done slowly over the last 16 years, but conservatice politicians were busy doing... I don't know what. Nuclear is and was never a viable option. While fans of this technology are repeating it over and over, the German reactors were EOL. Also: The energy companies were only able to run those reactors because that has been subsidized in different ways. The economic downturn is somewhat more complicated, I think. Lots of companies have used the pandemic to rise prices. While that might have been a real issue due to logistics during the pandemic, right now it's only greedflation with companies rising prices "because they can". That hits companies as well as persons and leads to people being more frugal and results in the economic downturn. The "downturn" also might be a more realistic view of the situation, as the current government is not that leaned towards pampering businesses and lobbyists as the former ones. Former growth is in parts the result of subsidizing, tax reductions, low interest rates etc. These are all valid measurements to boost an economy, but someone has to pay the price for that. Now, there's also a price to pay for modernizing the country at a larger scale and businesses have to pay their share, too. I think that's only fair. [1]: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie...
  - snowpid 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - martin_a 3y ago
      Be respectful and talk English. And do you think it's unobjective to think that the conservative governements of the past have missed to lay the foundations? We're sitting on our slow copper cable internet, due to Helmut fucking Kohl in the late 80s. Since then nobody has made any effort to improve the infrastructure significantly. Instead the Deutsche Post was privatized and now the Telekom has obviously no incentive to lay fiber for fast internet, especially in the rural areas, when they can milk their customers on the copper cables. And that's just one example of how past governments have failed the people. On the other hand it's just funny _how much_ the new government is said to have run this country against the wall after taking over. I'd love if they had done that much at all.
- b3orn 3y ago
  > arriving at loads more coal production Where is this "fact" coming from? Coal is being phased out. Numbers for last year increased slightly, but that was due to gas, not nuclear shutdowns. For this year coal usage is on track to being at 2020 levels, which was an outlier year. Source: https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001010000000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
- klaustopher 3y ago
  Most German energy imports are actually from Denmark, which is mostly wind energy [1]. Gas now mostly comes from Norway. [2] Don't know why you say we rely on France or even the US and the middle east? [1]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-agreement-joint-offshore-wind-project-bornholm-energy-island https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-ag... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-stand-gas-supply-2023-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-s...
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  To be fair, Germany economy was already fucked, but the energy transition is accelerating the inevitable. Germany is the last of the industry-based economies in Europe and this while simultaneously being the country with the highest energy prices. That situation was never going to last. The energy prices will remain high for many decades even if a successful energy transition might bring them down eventually, so industry has been relocating outside of the country anyway. The transition to EVs has only made matters worse. A lot of German industry is being made redundant. And Germany in 2023 is still skeptical of the digital age and a service based economy. So yeah, the future is not bright either way. But what the government is doing is partly ideology based and partly, I believe, the personal ambition of the economy minister himself. I think the American approach is much more sane and they will probably still end up being the global leaders of green energy tech.
  - martin_a 3y ago
    > The energy prices will remain high for many decades Bullshit. You can get a new contract for 30 Cent/kWh right now. That's the same price as in 2017 [1]. [1]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikationen/Energiepreise/energiepreisentwicklung-pdf-5619001.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikat... Page 47
- V__ 3y ago
  There is a bit more nuance to this. The nuclear shutdown was a reaction to the changing sentiment regarding nuclear power after Fukushima (An overreaction in my opinion). It was decided to slowly phase nuclear power out (until 2020) and invest more in renewables. This was a rare occasion where basically all parties were happy. Greens because green and the rest because it made them look like listening to the popular mood at the time, with 80% being in favor [1]. Of course, as is tradition in the last decades, the law was done quickly, but the investing part was somehow forgotten. Instead, if investing in renewables, the reliance on Russian gas was increased (Insert joke about irony here). Now it's 2021 and a new government is elected. Covid just ended and the war in Ukraine started. The nuclear plants are one-by-one shutting down, but the ones running are getting very costly extensions to have reserves. They are old, have not been maintained (because they were shutting down) and are too expensive, and energy companies don't want to keep them online anymore. The underinvestments so far take revenge. The reliance on Russia is now seen as a big mistake. In a years time, Germany changed that reliance (under a green minister's leadership, no less) by building LNG terminals and diversifying sources [2]. While still having the long-term goal of not getting in such a situation again. However, Germany is extremely expanding wind and solar, with the goal of having 80% coming from renewable sources by 2030 [3].Right now, electricity pricing has nearly reached 2021 level and is continuing to fall. Gas is still higher but there is a big push for industries to change to hydrogen where possible. > every german older household is forced to change their heater Long term yes. If you need a new heater which can't be repaired, you need to get a heat pump. This will be subsidized. This will lessen outside reliance and be a part in taking climate action. > It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. I think that is a bit harsh. It's more that decades of ignoring problems and not investing have culminated in a bad situation. Neoliberalism has created immense investment bottlenecks, and Germany was lucky to survive that long. Now they have a lot of catching up to do. Which won't be easy, in no small part because Germany is not allowed to take on new debt (constitutional amendment) and raising taxes is a now go, because neoliberalism. So yeah.. [1] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/dt1104_bericht.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_u... [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2023/20230105_RueckblickGas2022.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... [3] https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimaschutz/energiewende-beschleunigen-2040310 https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimasch...
- klaustopher 3y ago
  > Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. This is also simply not true. You are not allowed to install new heatings that burn gas or oil. Wood pellets, heat pump, etc, all allowed. If you have a working heating, nobody is forcing you to rip it out. You are allowed to have repairs if it stops working. If it completely breaks down, there is also possibilities to get exemptions if i.e. a heat pump is not feasible. Maybe take a look at the actual law and not what some media is trying to read into the law.
  - input_sh 3y ago
    I don't know if the oil industry's astroturfing is absolutely amazing or if people intentionally don't want to understand, but I swear every single legal step taken towards reducing our reliance on fossil fuels anywhere in the Western world is always filled to the brim with people misunderstanding what the law actually means.
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    But then it will lead to having less spare parts, less people learning the job of gas heater repair. You will kill the Market around Gas Heaters, you let the work force die and then you force indirectly people to move to heat pump. I have heat pump myself as long as solar energy, but I can see that even though it's true that nobody is forcing to, understanding how the market works, it is easier to see how it will be in the next years: We will just find people specialized in Heat Pump, it will be easier to install a new Heat pump than repair and maintain your older heater.
- deleted 3y ago
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comandillos 3y ago
Anyone living in Germany with an EV should know pretty well that this is pretty much the case already anywhere in the country. The incredible amount of HPC (> 150kW) chargers you can find even in the most remote rural areas in Germany is simply crazy, mostly thanks to the large amounts of german dealerships with HPC chargers (such as Porsche), gas stations like Aral with their own charging network, or even rest areas with IONITY or other providers... and lets not take into account Tesla SuC, as that would increase the number even more.
- mousetree 3y ago
  This is news to me. I only see the 11kw chargers in Berlin but perhaps I just don’t know where to look
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    You can use PlugShare (https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/) to find chargers. And A Better Routeplanner (https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) is a good EV route planner to plan charging stops for road trips.
  - comandillos 3y ago
    I see dozens of them actually. Check on chargeprice (https://www.chargeprice.app https://www.chargeprice.app). They usually have the most up-to-date status for chargers around
- freddie_mercury 3y ago
  Yeah it isn't clear to me from the details currently available that this is much more than a PR stunt. A quick Google tells me that Germany has around 15,000 petrol filling stations and already has around 90,000 public charging points. Even if we assume that not a single petrol filling station has a charging point...and also assume that the not yet even proposed law is going to require a minimum of 2 charging points per station...that still only increases the supply by 30%. We can all imagine variations on those parameters that make it look better or worse. Maybe they'll be required to have parity in numbers between petrol & EV pumps? But without anything concrete about the law, it is hard to know what there is to even discuss here yet.
ulfw 3y ago
A fuel pump can fill up 6-7, maybe more cars in the time it takes to partially (say to 80% or so) fill up one electric car. So how is that infrastructure going to work? Edit: funny how few people are trying to comment on the '80% of gas stations shall have ev charging' and rather focus on alternatives to such gas stations, such as home charging, street side charging and what not. The article is about gas station charging, as is my comment.
- adrianN 3y ago
  People will only fast charge on long trips and slow charge whenever the car is parked, i.e. 22h per day.
  - GOTO95 3y ago
    >slow charge whenever the car is parked How does that work for people who live in cities? I like electric cars - less moving parts, less noise, less cost maintaining and driving - but they are utterly useless to me because there is no way I can charge one. Hybrids are ok, though, I can charge in the rare case I'm actually parked near a charger.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      > How does that work for people who live in cities? With curbside charging, and wireless charging will be convenient once that's rolled out. No cables, just park over the charging plate. It's not like wireless phone charging. It's very efficient: https://insideevs.com/news/340478/120-kw-wireless-charging-proves-97-efficient/ https://insideevs.com/news/340478/120-kw-wireless-charging-p... https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/what-is-efficiency-how-do-you-measure-it-and-why-should-you-care/ https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/what-is-efficiency-how-d... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1gaNO9nj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1gaNO9nj0
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      - 3y ago
davidgerard 3y ago
This is a reblog of a reblog. Here's the Reuters original: https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/germany-launch-massive-expansion-ev-charging-network-says-scholz-2023-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/germany-launch-mass...
28304283409234 3y ago
I rented an EV for vacationing this summer, as I don't have a car. The experience was horrendous, compared to gas. In France anyway. Need to fill up gas? Go to any gasstation, fill up, pay by card. Requirements: a car and money. Need to fill up EV? Find a charging point with your exact plug. Learn about different plugs, different namings for the same things, very confusing. Then, you cannot simply fill up. You must first download an app, create an account, hook up your creditcard to that account, use the app to scan the QR on the station, fill up and pay by card. Even if you are not required (by french law) to open an account, you are charged more by $chargingcompany if you do not. Requirements: a phone with camera and internet connection, creditcard, the correct cable, downloaded and configured app For this consumer, this is a huge step backwards in usability.
- klaustopher 3y ago
  Yeah, I don't understand that the lawmakers in Europe have allowed this horrible situation to develop. Every EV charger should be required to just tap your credit card and start charging. I don't care if they also have their own cards with accounts and some sort of subscription *additionally*. But the accountless payment with just a card should definetly be a requirement on all chargers. I hope the EU steps in and solves this.
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    > I don't understand that the lawmakers in Europe have allowed this horrible situation to develop lawmakers in Europe don't drive. They normally get their private jet already "recharged".
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    The EU is solving this: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
    - klaustopher 3y ago
      Awesome!
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
I don't like the idea of charging my EV at a gas station, but I do like the idea of forcing anyone and everyone connected with fossil fuels to be help fix the problem they created.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > to be help fix the problem they created What you mean?
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    Electrification of transport is one of the key solutions to climate change (and urban air pollution). The people running gas stations are not only attracting mobile pollutors to the location they occupy, they're leaking poisons into the air, earth and water locally as well as profiting from the sale of fossil fuels to be burned.
    - pelasaco 3y ago
      > Electrification of transport is one of the key solutions to climate change (and urban air pollution). That's we are going to see in the long run. It is disputed that the e-cars have a smaller footprint than for instance modern small diesel motors (calculating the amount of km you can drive with + production chain).
      - adrianN 3y ago
        That is only disputed among laymen.
        pelasaco 3y ago
        There is always an Aikido guy.. It is disputed, if you compare the whole production chain, the life time of a battery, how do you generate clean energy to support it (nobody will believe the aikido expert, that without nuclear energy just with solar and wind, we are able to supply the energy demand in Germany, etc)

45 points by raybb 3y ago

Hope German gas station tenants make more in their main business because of that. Sweets, snacks and drinks... They're doomed no question, this will only speed it up.

glogla 3y ago
The common wisdom is that gas stations already make most money on sweets, snacks and drinks. Becoming charging stations might even improve it.

zpeti 3y ago

Can someone please explain to me, in an objective non political way what German leadership is actually doing in the last 3-4 years? It seems like complete economic suicide to me, and they are just doubling down all the time. I can morally understand not using russian energy, but the consequences of this seem to have been completely ignored. Even worse, all nuclear has been shut down, doubling down on dependence on outside powers like the US, middle east, and france. All this in the name of green energy, arriving at loads more coal production and political dependence. Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. Why? Why?? Recent german industrial production data for reference: https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594 https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1699687261808263594

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firecall 3y ago
Maybe they’ve woken up and realised that the consequence of destroying the climate for humans is not having an economy to worry about at all. You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.
- zpeti 3y ago
  I fail to see how this is the solution. China now produces more CO2 than US and europe combined. And it's growing. So is India. Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. It's also not going to persuade china and india to change course.
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    > Germany committing economic suicide will not save the planet. Actually will make the situation worse, since Germany uses the taxpayers money to support many other countries around the World.. Less tax money, less money to share. > It's also not going to persuade China and India to change course Even worse: It will show other Countries that the right way to move forward is to be like China and India, instead of being like Germany.
  - adaml_623 3y ago
    Just think about what will persuade China and India? Maybe Germany just wants to be ahead of the pack
    - usrusr 3y ago
      China is doing a massive renewable buildup. Yes, they are also increasing fossil-based production, but that's because their renewable buildup can't quite keep up with total growth. China is persuaded, more than most others. (unfortunately India is a very different story)
  - marcyb5st 3y ago
    Unless at some point we (meaning humanity) introduce a carbon tax based on how sustainable are the means of production of a country. Another thing. China has more people that Europe and US combined and so does India. With your statement you are somewhat implying that we (European as Us citizen) have a right to pollute more per capita than Cinese and Indian citizens. I don't think that's fair.
    - 3y ago
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adrianN 3y ago
Economic suicide would be continuing with business as usual and leaving all growth markets to the Chinese. What we’re trying to do is forcing companies who have grown fat on milking innovations from decades ago into adapting to the global market realities.
- zpeti 3y ago
  I mean, china is also committing economic suicide, so at least there's that...
  - candiodari 3y ago
    But don't you see the wisdom in joining China's suicide, rather than just waiting it out?
chess_buster 3y ago
We're replacing coal, nuclear and fossil gas with solar, wind, and storage (in form of compressed air, batteries, and power2gas). Once this has been completed, we're free from buying coal, uranium (Russia? Niger?), or gas and stop emitting large amounts of C02 due to the burning of fossil fuels.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "Once this has been completed" Especially the "storage" part is really far in the future, certainly not by 2030 or so. Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. The sun may shine for free, but no one escapes a thorough entanglement in global trade networks nowadays.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    > Also, you are becoming dependent on countries like China for solar panels and other non-free or semi-free countries for rare earths, lithium etc. Bought a 115Wp rated solar panel earlier this year, made in China. For the foreseeable future (years, or 20y+ rated lifespan of such a panel), I can generate power from that panel without making ANY additional purchases. At the end of that lifespan, market conditions will be very, very different from today. How does that "make me dependent on China, etc"? Any renewable installed = long-term, independent power generating capacity obtained. Regardless where initial materials came from. Dependency is hitting gas station every day & not being able to move car when oil company fails to supply gas station. Long term investments like solar panels don't work like that.
martin_a 3y ago
> in an objective non political way While your whole post implicates that you are leaning to the conservatice spectrum, I will try to be as objective as possible. Germany has been ruled by conservative governments for the last 16 years. These governments have hindered innovation (see German internet speeds for example) and lobbyists made sure that nothing changed in regards of mobility, energy, city building and whatnot. The russian attack on Ukraine has made clear that dependency on foreign states is not a good idea and that we have to act on that swiftly. Acting swiftly comes with a cost for the moment for sure. Energy prices are already falling though for example, renewables are being build, probably like never before, see [1] at the bottom, and dependency on fossil fuels is being reduced steadily. That could have been done slowly over the last 16 years, but conservatice politicians were busy doing... I don't know what. Nuclear is and was never a viable option. While fans of this technology are repeating it over and over, the German reactors were EOL. Also: The energy companies were only able to run those reactors because that has been subsidized in different ways. The economic downturn is somewhat more complicated, I think. Lots of companies have used the pandemic to rise prices. While that might have been a real issue due to logistics during the pandemic, right now it's only greedflation with companies rising prices "because they can". That hits companies as well as persons and leads to people being more frugal and results in the economic downturn. The "downturn" also might be a more realistic view of the situation, as the current government is not that leaned towards pampering businesses and lobbyists as the former ones. Former growth is in parts the result of subsidizing, tax reductions, low interest rates etc. These are all valid measurements to boost an economy, but someone has to pay the price for that. Now, there's also a price to pay for modernizing the country at a larger scale and businesses have to pay their share, too. I think that's only fair. [1]: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energien.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Dossier/erneuerbare-energie...
- snowpid 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - martin_a 3y ago
    Be respectful and talk English. And do you think it's unobjective to think that the conservative governements of the past have missed to lay the foundations? We're sitting on our slow copper cable internet, due to Helmut fucking Kohl in the late 80s. Since then nobody has made any effort to improve the infrastructure significantly. Instead the Deutsche Post was privatized and now the Telekom has obviously no incentive to lay fiber for fast internet, especially in the rural areas, when they can milk their customers on the copper cables. And that's just one example of how past governments have failed the people. On the other hand it's just funny _how much_ the new government is said to have run this country against the wall after taking over. I'd love if they had done that much at all.
b3orn 3y ago
> arriving at loads more coal production Where is this "fact" coming from? Coal is being phased out. Numbers for last year increased slightly, but that was due to gas, not nuclear shutdowns. For this year coal usage is on track to being at 2020 levels, which was an outlier year. Source: https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&chartColumnSorting=default&legendItems=000001010000000000000&interval=year&year=-1 https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE...
klaustopher 3y ago
Most German energy imports are actually from Denmark, which is mostly wind energy [1]. Gas now mostly comes from Norway. [2] Don't know why you say we rely on France or even the US and the middle east? [1]: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-agreement-joint-offshore-wind-project-bornholm-energy-island https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/denmark-germany-sign-ag... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-stand-gas-supply-2023-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/where-does-germany-s...
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
To be fair, Germany economy was already fucked, but the energy transition is accelerating the inevitable. Germany is the last of the industry-based economies in Europe and this while simultaneously being the country with the highest energy prices. That situation was never going to last. The energy prices will remain high for many decades even if a successful energy transition might bring them down eventually, so industry has been relocating outside of the country anyway. The transition to EVs has only made matters worse. A lot of German industry is being made redundant. And Germany in 2023 is still skeptical of the digital age and a service based economy. So yeah, the future is not bright either way. But what the government is doing is partly ideology based and partly, I believe, the personal ambition of the economy minister himself. I think the American approach is much more sane and they will probably still end up being the global leaders of green energy tech.
- martin_a 3y ago
  > The energy prices will remain high for many decades Bullshit. You can get a new contract for 30 Cent/kWh right now. That's the same price as in 2017 [1]. [1]: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikationen/Energiepreise/energiepreisentwicklung-pdf-5619001.pdf?__blob=publicationFile https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Wirtschaft/Preise/Publikat... Page 47
V__ 3y ago
There is a bit more nuance to this. The nuclear shutdown was a reaction to the changing sentiment regarding nuclear power after Fukushima (An overreaction in my opinion). It was decided to slowly phase nuclear power out (until 2020) and invest more in renewables. This was a rare occasion where basically all parties were happy. Greens because green and the rest because it made them look like listening to the popular mood at the time, with 80% being in favor [1]. Of course, as is tradition in the last decades, the law was done quickly, but the investing part was somehow forgotten. Instead, if investing in renewables, the reliance on Russian gas was increased (Insert joke about irony here). Now it's 2021 and a new government is elected. Covid just ended and the war in Ukraine started. The nuclear plants are one-by-one shutting down, but the ones running are getting very costly extensions to have reserves. They are old, have not been maintained (because they were shutting down) and are too expensive, and energy companies don't want to keep them online anymore. The underinvestments so far take revenge. The reliance on Russia is now seen as a big mistake. In a years time, Germany changed that reliance (under a green minister's leadership, no less) by building LNG terminals and diversifying sources [2]. While still having the long-term goal of not getting in such a situation again. However, Germany is extremely expanding wind and solar, with the goal of having 80% coming from renewable sources by 2030 [3].Right now, electricity pricing has nearly reached 2021 level and is continuing to fall. Gas is still higher but there is a big push for industries to change to hydrogen where possible. > every german older household is forced to change their heater Long term yes. If you need a new heater which can't be repaired, you need to get a heat pump. This will be subsidized. This will lessen outside reliance and be a part in taking climate action. > It's just worse and worse, the largest power in europe is basically destroying itself. I think that is a bit harsh. It's more that decades of ignoring problems and not investing have culminated in a bad situation. Neoliberalism has created immense investment bottlenecks, and Germany was lucky to survive that long. Now they have a lot of catching up to do. Which won't be easy, in no small part because Germany is not allowed to take on new debt (constitutional amendment) and raising taxes is a now go, because neoliberalism. So yeah.. [1] https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/dt1104_bericht.pdf https://www.infratest-dimap.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_u... [2] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2023/20230105_RueckblickGas2022.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... [3] https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimaschutz/energiewende-beschleunigen-2040310 https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/klimasch...
klaustopher 3y ago
> Plus now, every german older household is forced to change their heater, at a cost of 500bn-1tn euros over the next decade. This is also simply not true. You are not allowed to install new heatings that burn gas or oil. Wood pellets, heat pump, etc, all allowed. If you have a working heating, nobody is forcing you to rip it out. You are allowed to have repairs if it stops working. If it completely breaks down, there is also possibilities to get exemptions if i.e. a heat pump is not feasible. Maybe take a look at the actual law and not what some media is trying to read into the law.
- input_sh 3y ago
  I don't know if the oil industry's astroturfing is absolutely amazing or if people intentionally don't want to understand, but I swear every single legal step taken towards reducing our reliance on fossil fuels anywhere in the Western world is always filled to the brim with people misunderstanding what the law actually means.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  But then it will lead to having less spare parts, less people learning the job of gas heater repair. You will kill the Market around Gas Heaters, you let the work force die and then you force indirectly people to move to heat pump. I have heat pump myself as long as solar energy, but I can see that even though it's true that nobody is forcing to, understanding how the market works, it is easier to see how it will be in the next years: We will just find people specialized in Heat Pump, it will be easier to install a new Heat pump than repair and maintain your older heater.
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comandillos 3y ago

Anyone living in Germany with an EV should know pretty well that this is pretty much the case already anywhere in the country. The incredible amount of HPC (> 150kW) chargers you can find even in the most remote rural areas in Germany is simply crazy, mostly thanks to the large amounts of german dealerships with HPC chargers (such as Porsche), gas stations like Aral with their own charging network, or even rest areas with IONITY or other providers... and lets not take into account Tesla SuC, as that would increase the number even more.

mousetree 3y ago
This is news to me. I only see the 11kw chargers in Berlin but perhaps I just don’t know where to look
- clouddrover 3y ago
  You can use PlugShare (https://www.plugshare.com/ https://www.plugshare.com/) to find chargers. And A Better Routeplanner (https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) is a good EV route planner to plan charging stops for road trips.
- comandillos 3y ago
  I see dozens of them actually. Check on chargeprice (https://www.chargeprice.app https://www.chargeprice.app). They usually have the most up-to-date status for chargers around
freddie_mercury 3y ago
Yeah it isn't clear to me from the details currently available that this is much more than a PR stunt. A quick Google tells me that Germany has around 15,000 petrol filling stations and already has around 90,000 public charging points. Even if we assume that not a single petrol filling station has a charging point...and also assume that the not yet even proposed law is going to require a minimum of 2 charging points per station...that still only increases the supply by 30%. We can all imagine variations on those parameters that make it look better or worse. Maybe they'll be required to have parity in numbers between petrol & EV pumps? But without anything concrete about the law, it is hard to know what there is to even discuss here yet.

ulfw 3y ago

A fuel pump can fill up 6-7, maybe more cars in the time it takes to partially (say to 80% or so) fill up one electric car. So how is that infrastructure going to work? Edit: funny how few people are trying to comment on the '80% of gas stations shall have ev charging' and rather focus on alternatives to such gas stations, such as home charging, street side charging and what not. The article is about gas station charging, as is my comment.

adrianN 3y ago
People will only fast charge on long trips and slow charge whenever the car is parked, i.e. 22h per day.
- GOTO95 3y ago
  >slow charge whenever the car is parked How does that work for people who live in cities? I like electric cars - less moving parts, less noise, less cost maintaining and driving - but they are utterly useless to me because there is no way I can charge one. Hybrids are ok, though, I can charge in the rare case I'm actually parked near a charger.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > How does that work for people who live in cities? With curbside charging, and wireless charging will be convenient once that's rolled out. No cables, just park over the charging plate. It's not like wireless phone charging. It's very efficient: https://insideevs.com/news/340478/120-kw-wireless-charging-proves-97-efficient/ https://insideevs.com/news/340478/120-kw-wireless-charging-p... https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/what-is-efficiency-how-do-you-measure-it-and-why-should-you-care/ https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/what-is-efficiency-how-d... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1gaNO9nj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1gaNO9nj0
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davidgerard 3y ago

This is a reblog of a reblog. Here's the Reuters original: https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/germany-launch-massive-expansion-ev-charging-network-says-scholz-2023-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/germany-launch-mass...

28304283409234 3y ago

I rented an EV for vacationing this summer, as I don't have a car. The experience was horrendous, compared to gas. In France anyway. Need to fill up gas? Go to any gasstation, fill up, pay by card. Requirements: a car and money. Need to fill up EV? Find a charging point with your exact plug. Learn about different plugs, different namings for the same things, very confusing. Then, you cannot simply fill up. You must first download an app, create an account, hook up your creditcard to that account, use the app to scan the QR on the station, fill up and pay by card. Even if you are not required (by french law) to open an account, you are charged more by $chargingcompany if you do not. Requirements: a phone with camera and internet connection, creditcard, the correct cable, downloaded and configured app For this consumer, this is a huge step backwards in usability.

klaustopher 3y ago
Yeah, I don't understand that the lawmakers in Europe have allowed this horrible situation to develop. Every EV charger should be required to just tap your credit card and start charging. I don't care if they also have their own cards with accounts and some sort of subscription *additionally*. But the accountless payment with just a card should definetly be a requirement on all chargers. I hope the EU steps in and solves this.
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > I don't understand that the lawmakers in Europe have allowed this horrible situation to develop lawmakers in Europe don't drive. They normally get their private jet already "recharged".
- clouddrover 3y ago
  The EU is solving this: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
  - klaustopher 3y ago
    Awesome!

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

I don't like the idea of charging my EV at a gas station, but I do like the idea of forcing anyone and everyone connected with fossil fuels to be help fix the problem they created.

pelasaco 3y ago
> to be help fix the problem they created What you mean?
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Electrification of transport is one of the key solutions to climate change (and urban air pollution). The people running gas stations are not only attracting mobile pollutors to the location they occupy, they're leaking poisons into the air, earth and water locally as well as profiting from the sale of fossil fuels to be burned.
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    > Electrification of transport is one of the key solutions to climate change (and urban air pollution). That's we are going to see in the long run. It is disputed that the e-cars have a smaller footprint than for instance modern small diesel motors (calculating the amount of km you can drive with + production chain).
    - adrianN 3y ago
      That is only disputed among laymen.
      - pelasaco 3y ago
        There is always an Aikido guy.. It is disputed, if you compare the whole production chain, the life time of a battery, how do you generate clean energy to support it (nobody will believe the aikido expert, that without nuclear energy just with solar and wind, we are able to supply the energy demand in Germany, etc)