4 ms·

I am far from religious, but one thing most religious traditions have common is how they ban usury/interest which would make much of global finance we have toda

I am far from religious, but one thing most religious traditions have common is how they ban usury/interest which would make much of global finance we have today “haram”. You can see the reverse effect too not only at an individual but collective level. Once the religious ethos disappears from a sect, widespread adoption of debt becomes the norm.

alexis2b 3y ago
There is also in the Bible the notion of a 50 years periodic Jubilee[1] when all debts would be canceled and the system effectively resets. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)
- Interloper2 3y ago
  ha! It may be in the Bible, but Jubilee was never celebrated, not even once.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Jubilee was never celebrated Ancient societies of all stripes had periodic debt forgiveness. Ancient (pre-Christian) Rome, for example.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    Whether or not it happened exactly as described within the Torah/Bible, we have plenty of records to indicate ancient societies regularly overturned debts. ... Unless you're making a joke that it happened but was not "celebrated" because most people didn't like it.
- PopePompus 3y ago
  Wouldn't that kinda make it difficult for anyone to get a mortgage during year 49?
  - rthomas6 3y ago
    Oh no!
  - LorenPechtel 3y ago
    Yeah, it would play havoc with durable-goods industries in the last few years of the cycle.
tacocataco 3y ago
Money is the new religion. Long live the economy!
Workaccount2 3y ago
But debt and interest are both sound concepts, and both are critical towards building an advanced society. Being able to borrow money from the future is enormously powerful.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  All forms of exploitation are incredibly valuable for those with the power to benefit from them.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    ...but it's not exploitation. Your head is thinking about bad debt, but bad debt is only a tiny fraction of total debt. It certainly makes for excellent highly memorable emotionally charged stories, which is why we are here, but the fact of that matter is that overwhelming majority of debt is paid off and bears actual fruit. Even debt like student loans, which gets almost universally panned, is still good debt. The ROI on a collage education is ~1000% (amount borrowed/paid off vs. increased lifetime earnings). On paper your are still dumb to not take out student loans to get a degree.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      No I was pointing out that simply because something is beneficial for some people doesn't mean we should want it to exist, which is what I read your comment as saying. Please don't tell me what I am thinking.
      - Workaccount2 3y ago
        You're making the argument that cars shouldn't exist because some people die because of them. Like I said, debt is overwhelmingly useful to the vast majority of people who use it. We're not gonna ban cars because a handful of highly emotional road tragedies. We're not gonna abolish debt because of a handful of deranged debt collector stories.
danans 3y ago
> one thing most religious traditions have common is how they ban usury/interest which would make much of global finance we have today “haram”. The way Islamic finance avoids interest [1] - the bank buys a property and sells/leases it back to the borrower at a slightly higher price, paid in installments - sounds more like semantics than actually avoiding interest altogether. It seems to rely on a belief that there is a fundamental difference between rent paid on borrowed money (AKA interest), and rent paid borrow the use of real property. The virtue in Islamic banking seems to be that it has a healthy skepticism of financial derivative products, preferring to invest directly in physical assets and businesses. This probably avoids a great deal of risk (trading off the upside too). 1. https://www.guidanceresidential.com/resources/faith-based-financing/what-is-an-islamic-mortgage-and-how-does-it-work/ https://www.guidanceresidential.com/resources/faith-based-fi...

alexis2b 3y ago

There is also in the Bible the notion of a 50 years periodic Jubilee[1] when all debts would be canceled and the system effectively resets. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Interloper2 3y ago
ha! It may be in the Bible, but Jubilee was never celebrated, not even once.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Jubilee was never celebrated Ancient societies of all stripes had periodic debt forgiveness. Ancient (pre-Christian) Rome, for example.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  Whether or not it happened exactly as described within the Torah/Bible, we have plenty of records to indicate ancient societies regularly overturned debts. ... Unless you're making a joke that it happened but was not "celebrated" because most people didn't like it.
PopePompus 3y ago
Wouldn't that kinda make it difficult for anyone to get a mortgage during year 49?
- rthomas6 3y ago
  Oh no!
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  Yeah, it would play havoc with durable-goods industries in the last few years of the cycle.

tacocataco 3y ago

Money is the new religion. Long live the economy!

Workaccount2 3y ago

But debt and interest are both sound concepts, and both are critical towards building an advanced society. Being able to borrow money from the future is enormously powerful.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
All forms of exploitation are incredibly valuable for those with the power to benefit from them.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  ...but it's not exploitation. Your head is thinking about bad debt, but bad debt is only a tiny fraction of total debt. It certainly makes for excellent highly memorable emotionally charged stories, which is why we are here, but the fact of that matter is that overwhelming majority of debt is paid off and bears actual fruit. Even debt like student loans, which gets almost universally panned, is still good debt. The ROI on a collage education is ~1000% (amount borrowed/paid off vs. increased lifetime earnings). On paper your are still dumb to not take out student loans to get a degree.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    No I was pointing out that simply because something is beneficial for some people doesn't mean we should want it to exist, which is what I read your comment as saying. Please don't tell me what I am thinking.
    - Workaccount2 3y ago
      You're making the argument that cars shouldn't exist because some people die because of them. Like I said, debt is overwhelmingly useful to the vast majority of people who use it. We're not gonna ban cars because a handful of highly emotional road tragedies. We're not gonna abolish debt because of a handful of deranged debt collector stories.

danans 3y ago

> one thing most religious traditions have common is how they ban usury/interest which would make much of global finance we have today “haram”. The way Islamic finance avoids interest [1] - the bank buys a property and sells/leases it back to the borrower at a slightly higher price, paid in installments - sounds more like semantics than actually avoiding interest altogether. It seems to rely on a belief that there is a fundamental difference between rent paid on borrowed money (AKA interest), and rent paid borrow the use of real property. The virtue in Islamic banking seems to be that it has a healthy skepticism of financial derivative products, preferring to invest directly in physical assets and businesses. This probably avoids a great deal of risk (trading off the upside too). 1. https://www.guidanceresidential.com/resources/faith-based-financing/what-is-an-islamic-mortgage-and-how-does-it-work/ https://www.guidanceresidential.com/resources/faith-based-fi...