6 ms·

A little over a decade ago I knew a young adult in the US that had a pretty rough life and I was trying to help her get back on her feet. When you’re homeless,

A little over a decade ago I knew a young adult in the US that had a pretty rough life and I was trying to help her get back on her feet. When you’re homeless, it’s hard to get mail, and hard to keep your stuff; going from nothing to your standard documents is tricky. To get your birth certificate, you need to write a check to the state at some address where you’ll be able to receive mail in 2-4 weeks. Once you have that, you can go into the social security office and request a replacement social security card. Which they’ll mail to you in 2-4 weeks. There’s also a lifetime limit to how many times you can replace your card, which is surprisingly small. State ID cards also get mailed to you. Moreover, you need to provide proof of your address, and the address gets printed on the card. We used my address, but no good deed goes unpunished - the address on your ID card gets published in the paper when you’re arrested. Then my nosy neighbor asks if everyone is alright because someone living at my house got arrested for possession of meth. On top of each of those steps costing money and being hard to do when you’re homeless, there’s a dependency chain. You got to do them one at a time. Navigating the public bureaucracy is an annoyance for someone in what patio11 calls the professional/managerial class. There are other social strata’s where it’s a virtual impossibility without help. That’s important to keep in mind when you’re thinking about welfare bureaucracy or voter ID laws or anything like that.

eru 3y ago
> That’s important to keep in mind when you’re thinking about welfare bureaucracy or voter ID laws or anything like that. Amen to that. Though luckily while it's huge problem for the former, it doesn't matter for the latter. (Because individuals by and large don't benefit from being able to vote. Voting is at best something altruistic, individuals do out of civic duty.)
- whatshisface 3y ago
  You will be in for a surprise to find out what happens when only the people from a restricted demographic are able to, altruistically, vote. :-)
  - eru 3y ago
    Not sure. What big changes happened thanks to eg women getting the vote? In the US, it was mostly Prohibition I guess?
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? The overwhelming majority of Americans have one. Even the large majority of any given minority group does. And if this is a legitimate concern it could be mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID. Address whatever prevents some people from having one, instead of not requiring it. But also, isn't your disaster scenario the thing that happens in a democracy regardless? Majority rule when you're the minority. What you're left with is the fairness argument: It's supposed to be one person, one vote. But that's the argument the proponents of voter ID make.
    - eru 3y ago
      Have you read the rest of the discussion, or at least the comments higher up the chain? > Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? [...] mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID. We were talking about how many ostensibly free resources, rights and welfare are gated behind paperwork and bureaucracy. The discussion was exactly about just making something free is only a small part; and most of the time money isn't even the biggest hurdle for poor people. I don't have too strong of an opinion on voter id laws. (I grew up in Germany where approximately everyone a government ID, and you need it for voting. And that seems to work ok. And the US system of mostly not requiring voter ID also seems to work ok.) But despite my lack of opinion on whether those laws are good or not, I can understand that just making ID cost $0 misses most of the hurdles in practice.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        But isn't that the point? You have to address the other hurdles too. For most benefits programs that is still going to be necessary even if you remove means testing, because some kind of identification would be necessary to keep someone from claiming the benefit an unlimited number of times. Which is the same as the problem with voting.
- repiret 3y ago
  I agree that individual votes by and large don’t matter, but when public policy makes it harder for an entire class of people to vote, that does matter, especially when there’s a correlation between the class of people and policy preferences.
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
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pierat 3y ago
I was kicked out of my parent's house. The really shit side: its impossible to change your drivers license (which is your "official address") to homeless. And if you get sued, they send your mail to that former address, regardless if you ever get it. And, well, I was sued. My parents destroyed my mail. And had a summary judgement against me on a case I didnt know exist, to an address I couldn't change cause I didnt have a new one. Fuck this country.
- MerelyMortal 3y ago
  > fuck this country Are there other countries that allow you to put "homeless" on your driver license?
  - pierat 3y ago
    Does that actually matter? I'm here, and it costs $3500 plus all my student debt to legally leave.
    - MerelyMortal 3y ago
      Yes, otherwise it sounds like you're changing the subject. No, it costs whatever the visas and transportation costs. I've never heard of anyone not being allowed to leave a country because of student debt.
      - pierat 3y ago
        No, getting rid of my citizenship costs $3500 plus all my student debt. Ive been told countless times "if you dont like it here, leave". And I cant.
        MerelyMortal 3y ago
        You don't have to give up citizenship to leave.
        PrimeMcFly 3y ago

eru 3y ago

> That’s important to keep in mind when you’re thinking about welfare bureaucracy or voter ID laws or anything like that. Amen to that. Though luckily while it's huge problem for the former, it doesn't matter for the latter. (Because individuals by and large don't benefit from being able to vote. Voting is at best something altruistic, individuals do out of civic duty.)

whatshisface 3y ago
You will be in for a surprise to find out what happens when only the people from a restricted demographic are able to, altruistically, vote. :-)
- eru 3y ago
  Not sure. What big changes happened thanks to eg women getting the vote? In the US, it was mostly Prohibition I guess?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? The overwhelming majority of Americans have one. Even the large majority of any given minority group does. And if this is a legitimate concern it could be mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID. Address whatever prevents some people from having one, instead of not requiring it. But also, isn't your disaster scenario the thing that happens in a democracy regardless? Majority rule when you're the minority. What you're left with is the fairness argument: It's supposed to be one person, one vote. But that's the argument the proponents of voter ID make.
  - eru 3y ago
    Have you read the rest of the discussion, or at least the comments higher up the chain? > Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? [...] mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID. We were talking about how many ostensibly free resources, rights and welfare are gated behind paperwork and bureaucracy. The discussion was exactly about just making something free is only a small part; and most of the time money isn't even the biggest hurdle for poor people. I don't have too strong of an opinion on voter id laws. (I grew up in Germany where approximately everyone a government ID, and you need it for voting. And that seems to work ok. And the US system of mostly not requiring voter ID also seems to work ok.) But despite my lack of opinion on whether those laws are good or not, I can understand that just making ID cost $0 misses most of the hurdles in practice.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      But isn't that the point? You have to address the other hurdles too. For most benefits programs that is still going to be necessary even if you remove means testing, because some kind of identification would be necessary to keep someone from claiming the benefit an unlimited number of times. Which is the same as the problem with voting.
repiret 3y ago
I agree that individual votes by and large don’t matter, but when public policy makes it harder for an entire class of people to vote, that does matter, especially when there’s a correlation between the class of people and policy preferences.

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago

[dead]

pierat 3y ago

I was kicked out of my parent's house. The really shit side: its impossible to change your drivers license (which is your "official address") to homeless. And if you get sued, they send your mail to that former address, regardless if you ever get it. And, well, I was sued. My parents destroyed my mail. And had a summary judgement against me on a case I didnt know exist, to an address I couldn't change cause I didnt have a new one. Fuck this country.

MerelyMortal 3y ago
> fuck this country Are there other countries that allow you to put "homeless" on your driver license?
- pierat 3y ago
  Does that actually matter? I'm here, and it costs $3500 plus all my student debt to legally leave.
  - MerelyMortal 3y ago
    Yes, otherwise it sounds like you're changing the subject. No, it costs whatever the visas and transportation costs. I've never heard of anyone not being allowed to leave a country because of student debt.
    - pierat 3y ago
      No, getting rid of my citizenship costs $3500 plus all my student debt. Ive been told countless times "if you dont like it here, leave". And I cant.
      - MerelyMortal 3y ago
        You don't have to give up citizenship to leave.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago