6 ms·

GP's point is that those are not, by definition, USB Type-C cables (even though a bootleg can still function like one for some use cases), and Apple is not like

GP's point is that those are not, by definition, USB Type-C cables (even though a bootleg can still function like one for some use cases), and Apple is not likely to sell USB non-conforming cables.

coffeebeqn 3y ago
Yeah wouldn’t it be less copper to only put in the voltage connectors? I don’t see why low end wouldn’t skimp out on those
- zlsa 3y ago
  If a USB-C to USB-C cable only had wires for VCC and GND, here's what wouldn't work: * Data (this one is fairly obvious) * Power (since the CC wire in the cable is missing, and a compliant USB-C power source will refuse to output power unless the CC wire is terminated on the other end which signals what type of device it is) You'd need at _least_ the CC wire as well.
  - hedora 3y ago
    Can’t the cable terminate it instead? That would save a lot of wire, and consumer expectations for USB-C reliability are just above “might catch fire” and below “I’d be surprised if the cable was incompatible or failed so quickly”.
    - duskwuff 3y ago
      You'd end up with a cable that only worked for "slow charging" (5V / 500 mA), and even then only in one direction (because the cable could only pretend to be Rp+Ra or Ra+Rd for one side). It's easier to do the right thing.
      - hedora 3y ago
        I wonder how much a crappy voltage regulator costs vs. 3-9ft of wire. Maybe you could step the voltage down at the device end?
- dfcowell 3y ago
  The spec requires negotiation between the devices to deliver any nontrivial amount of power. A data connection is necessary to enable charging.
paulmd 3y ago
then we live in a world with extremely low adoption of this standard. why race to replace lightning with a standard that doesn't have good market penetration? if you can't walk into the store and pick up a usb-c cable (because we've agreed that cable sold at the checkout counter isn't a real usb-c cable) then why does this standard matter?
- denderson 3y ago
  Because Europe made Apple adopt USB-C.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    Glorifying government intervention into market economics (and forcing a changeover of an entire ecosystem of hardware, producing innumerable e-waste) seems like an odd take for HN's libertarian culture. Same thing with the sideloading, it's not enough that android lets you do it, apple's business model centered around the iphone as a secure endpoint has to be completely outlawed. kinda seems the android idea just isn't resilient enough to stand on its own in the market without government intervention to literally outlaw competition with it. given how obtuse and anti-consumer the USB-IF body tends to be, this probably won't end well in the long run. and this isn't even going into the e-waste problems resulting from the android software lifecycle or the lack of OEM support lifecycle for parts availability, etc - all of which are simply swept under the rug in the headlong rush to coronate a market winner by government fiat. it's easy to see that with the lack of concern over e-waste, and the lack of concern over sideloading in other situations (like consoles) that this was never really about e-waste at all, it was just legislating a solution to the android vs iphone wars. And that's fundamentally disappointing - fanboy wars should not be the basis for governmental policy and regulation.
    - komali2 3y ago
      I don't understand - many devices that aren't android phones use USBC. The only devices on earth that used lightning were Apple ones, and not even all their devices (laptops) use it. Standards and interop are good. If the "free market" refuses to align on that value I'm happy for another mechanism to force it to happen. Judging from this thread, I'm not alone in that.
rprospero 3y ago
> Apple is not likely to sell USB non-conforming cables. I remember Apple intentionally selling non-USB conforming cables for the keyboard on the early iMacs. There was a little notch in the USB cable which meant that it couldn't plug into a standard USB port. The urban legend at the time was that it also meant that they didn't have to include the USB logo on the cable, better matching Steve's aesthetic preferences.
xen2xen1 3y ago
But, by definition, all of humanity that is not GP will call them that, so.. Calling them not USB-C is pedantic to the point of extreme silliness.

GP's point is that those are not, by definition, USB Type-C cables (even though a bootleg can still function like one for some use cases), and Apple is not likely to sell USB non-conforming cables.

coffeebeqn 3y ago

Yeah wouldn’t it be less copper to only put in the voltage connectors? I don’t see why low end wouldn’t skimp out on those

zlsa 3y ago
If a USB-C to USB-C cable only had wires for VCC and GND, here's what wouldn't work: * Data (this one is fairly obvious) * Power (since the CC wire in the cable is missing, and a compliant USB-C power source will refuse to output power unless the CC wire is terminated on the other end which signals what type of device it is) You'd need at _least_ the CC wire as well.
- hedora 3y ago
  Can’t the cable terminate it instead? That would save a lot of wire, and consumer expectations for USB-C reliability are just above “might catch fire” and below “I’d be surprised if the cable was incompatible or failed so quickly”.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    You'd end up with a cable that only worked for "slow charging" (5V / 500 mA), and even then only in one direction (because the cable could only pretend to be Rp+Ra or Ra+Rd for one side). It's easier to do the right thing.
    - hedora 3y ago
      I wonder how much a crappy voltage regulator costs vs. 3-9ft of wire. Maybe you could step the voltage down at the device end?
dfcowell 3y ago
The spec requires negotiation between the devices to deliver any nontrivial amount of power. A data connection is necessary to enable charging.

paulmd 3y ago

then we live in a world with extremely low adoption of this standard. why race to replace lightning with a standard that doesn't have good market penetration? if you can't walk into the store and pick up a usb-c cable (because we've agreed that cable sold at the checkout counter isn't a real usb-c cable) then why does this standard matter?

denderson 3y ago
Because Europe made Apple adopt USB-C.
- paulmd 3y ago
  Glorifying government intervention into market economics (and forcing a changeover of an entire ecosystem of hardware, producing innumerable e-waste) seems like an odd take for HN's libertarian culture. Same thing with the sideloading, it's not enough that android lets you do it, apple's business model centered around the iphone as a secure endpoint has to be completely outlawed. kinda seems the android idea just isn't resilient enough to stand on its own in the market without government intervention to literally outlaw competition with it. given how obtuse and anti-consumer the USB-IF body tends to be, this probably won't end well in the long run. and this isn't even going into the e-waste problems resulting from the android software lifecycle or the lack of OEM support lifecycle for parts availability, etc - all of which are simply swept under the rug in the headlong rush to coronate a market winner by government fiat. it's easy to see that with the lack of concern over e-waste, and the lack of concern over sideloading in other situations (like consoles) that this was never really about e-waste at all, it was just legislating a solution to the android vs iphone wars. And that's fundamentally disappointing - fanboy wars should not be the basis for governmental policy and regulation.
  - komali2 3y ago
    I don't understand - many devices that aren't android phones use USBC. The only devices on earth that used lightning were Apple ones, and not even all their devices (laptops) use it. Standards and interop are good. If the "free market" refuses to align on that value I'm happy for another mechanism to force it to happen. Judging from this thread, I'm not alone in that.

rprospero 3y ago

> Apple is not likely to sell USB non-conforming cables. I remember Apple intentionally selling non-USB conforming cables for the keyboard on the early iMacs. There was a little notch in the USB cable which meant that it couldn't plug into a standard USB port. The urban legend at the time was that it also meant that they didn't have to include the USB logo on the cable, better matching Steve's aesthetic preferences.

xen2xen1 3y ago

But, by definition, all of humanity that is not GP will call them that, so.. Calling them not USB-C is pedantic to the point of extreme silliness.