6 ms·

Zero availability would indicate either severe supply shortages due to an inability to build (zoning/regulatory problems a la some municipalities in the US? Som

Zero availability would indicate either severe supply shortages due to an inability to build (zoning/regulatory problems a la some municipalities in the US? Something else?) or a price ceiling on rent, leading to an inability for the market to clear (with the equilibrium price being above the legal ceiling). Do you know which applies? As an outsider, it would seem that Ireland has plenty of land on which to build, though the availability of building materials is another matter, and is something I can see Ireland being short on.

astrange 3y ago
Ireland and the UK have the worst planning processes in the world leading to worse housing crises than even California. Having zoning would imply that it's legal to do something somewhere, which it basically isn't. In particular the Irish think their island is full of "nature" (when it's actually open fields because the British deforested all of it) and become ecofascists when you suggest any of it could be a building. (Or just regular ones since they think you'll want to put African immigrants in the building. Someone suggested this on Twitter last week and I've never seen so many replies afraid of "Somalis".) This is why more Irish live in America than in Ireland and the population is lower than it was in the 1800s.
- dboreham 3y ago
  Not famine then?
  - astrange 3y ago
    That's been over for a while. They can't move back because there's nowhere to live.
    - siftrics 3y ago
      I've met thousands and I don't know a single Irish American that has expressed a serious desire to move back. Don't get me wrong; I'm an Irish American and I'd love to live in Ireland. But I was born and raised in the US and would have to abandon all my friends to move there.
      - astrange 3y ago
        Yeah, it is pretty hard. Mine actually moved back to the UK but we have more immediate family there than usual. (Except for me since the tech industry isn't as good.) Apparently Australia is actually the only country with net immigration from the US.
        messe 3y ago
        > Apparently Australia is actually the only country with net immigration from the US. The E3 visas help with that. Otherwise as a tech worker you're generally stuck with either a H1B (which is a lottery) as a new hire, or L1B (which requires working for the company for a year) as an existing employee. Not all of the allocated E3 visa slots get used though, so IIRC, there's been continued discussions on Irish citizens being offered the remainder for the last few years, but nothing concrete yet.
        Macha 3y ago
        Are tech workers not eligible for EB-2/EB-3? I haven't gone through the process myself, but from a number of people I know I have, it seems pretty automatic for my EU citizen contacts to get US visas compared to the drama the process causes for Indians (my understanding is that this is due to many limits being per-country, but not considering population)
        laurencerowe 3y ago
        It's not really practical to move to the US on an EB-2/EB-3 green card since even at best its an 18 month process if you're not from one of the countries that reached its per country limit, so you're unlikely to find an employer to sponsor you to start a job so far in the future. So usually what happens is you move over on an H-1B but those are subject to an annual cap for which you only have a 1/4 chance of being selected unless you work for a cap-exempt non-profit employer. Employers will usually sponsor a green card after you start working for them.
      - donohoe 3y ago
- messe 3y ago
  > open fields because the British deforested all of it Ah here. It's unfair to solely blame the Brits for that. By the 1600s less than 20% of the island was forested, down from 80% at the start of the neolithic period[1]. [1]: https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/general-topics/history-of-forestry-in-ireland/ https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/general-topics/...
- jnsie 3y ago
  > This is why more Irish live in America than in Ireland This is nonsense. Are you telling me there are over 5 million 1st generation Irish people living in America? Of course the number will be significanty greater if you include descendants
  - astrange 3y ago
    If you were born in Ireland then your grandchildren born in America are Irish citizens if they apply, aren't they? Anyway, Americans consider themselves Irish/Korean/Iranian/etc down to 2nd or 3rd generation even if the original countries don't. (In fact, all white Americans think they're Irish even if they aren't because it lets them drink in more bars. That's also how America stole all the credit for inventing Halloween.)
    - Macha 3y ago
      The few million people that moved in the 1800-1980 era have a lot more to do with the prevalence of nth generation Irish descendants than people who have moved in the last two decades of property shortages
jajag 3y ago
In Ireland's case, both apply - there's an inability to build and there's defacto rent caps. Plus until very recently, an eviction ban.
- messe 3y ago
  Yep, our construction sector still hasn't recovered since the crash. Combine that with some poor government policy, an increase in construction costs, as awkward planning rules (almost anybody can object to anything for almost any reason), and you have the shitshow we see today. I emigrated earlier in the year to Denmark, so while the actual pastures are less green, the rental prospects that are much nicer. It took me almost no time at all to find a rental close to my new commute (I prefer remote work, but in this case I'm dealing with actual hardware, and so physical presence is genuinely beneficial and often necessary—I can still work remotely when I need to if I have a delivery, appointment, or something I can't miss but not worth taking a whole day of leave over; and... this stream of thought comment is straying rapidly off topic, so I'll cut it off here).
CalRobert 3y ago
Very hard to build, very hard to evict (you can be a horrible tenant for years and not get kicked out), very strict price controls (they carry over to the next renter), and lo and behold people decide being a landlord isn't worth the trouble. Property tax is low too so keeping places empty isn't as unappealing as elsewhere.
- gottorf 3y ago
  Ah, the usual suspects, then.
pydry 3y ago
Property taxes are too low.

astrange 3y ago

Ireland and the UK have the worst planning processes in the world leading to worse housing crises than even California. Having zoning would imply that it's legal to do something somewhere, which it basically isn't. In particular the Irish think their island is full of "nature" (when it's actually open fields because the British deforested all of it) and become ecofascists when you suggest any of it could be a building. (Or just regular ones since they think you'll want to put African immigrants in the building. Someone suggested this on Twitter last week and I've never seen so many replies afraid of "Somalis".) This is why more Irish live in America than in Ireland and the population is lower than it was in the 1800s.

dboreham 3y ago
Not famine then?
- astrange 3y ago
  That's been over for a while. They can't move back because there's nowhere to live.
  - siftrics 3y ago
    I've met thousands and I don't know a single Irish American that has expressed a serious desire to move back. Don't get me wrong; I'm an Irish American and I'd love to live in Ireland. But I was born and raised in the US and would have to abandon all my friends to move there.
    - astrange 3y ago
      Yeah, it is pretty hard. Mine actually moved back to the UK but we have more immediate family there than usual. (Except for me since the tech industry isn't as good.) Apparently Australia is actually the only country with net immigration from the US.
      - messe 3y ago
        > Apparently Australia is actually the only country with net immigration from the US. The E3 visas help with that. Otherwise as a tech worker you're generally stuck with either a H1B (which is a lottery) as a new hire, or L1B (which requires working for the company for a year) as an existing employee. Not all of the allocated E3 visa slots get used though, so IIRC, there's been continued discussions on Irish citizens being offered the remainder for the last few years, but nothing concrete yet.
        Macha 3y ago
        Are tech workers not eligible for EB-2/EB-3? I haven't gone through the process myself, but from a number of people I know I have, it seems pretty automatic for my EU citizen contacts to get US visas compared to the drama the process causes for Indians (my understanding is that this is due to many limits being per-country, but not considering population)
        laurencerowe 3y ago
        It's not really practical to move to the US on an EB-2/EB-3 green card since even at best its an 18 month process if you're not from one of the countries that reached its per country limit, so you're unlikely to find an employer to sponsor you to start a job so far in the future. So usually what happens is you move over on an H-1B but those are subject to an annual cap for which you only have a 1/4 chance of being selected unless you work for a cap-exempt non-profit employer. Employers will usually sponsor a green card after you start working for them.
    - donohoe 3y ago
messe 3y ago
> open fields because the British deforested all of it Ah here. It's unfair to solely blame the Brits for that. By the 1600s less than 20% of the island was forested, down from 80% at the start of the neolithic period[1]. [1]: https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/general-topics/history-of-forestry-in-ireland/ https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/general-topics/...
jnsie 3y ago
> This is why more Irish live in America than in Ireland This is nonsense. Are you telling me there are over 5 million 1st generation Irish people living in America? Of course the number will be significanty greater if you include descendants
- astrange 3y ago
  If you were born in Ireland then your grandchildren born in America are Irish citizens if they apply, aren't they? Anyway, Americans consider themselves Irish/Korean/Iranian/etc down to 2nd or 3rd generation even if the original countries don't. (In fact, all white Americans think they're Irish even if they aren't because it lets them drink in more bars. That's also how America stole all the credit for inventing Halloween.)
  - Macha 3y ago
    The few million people that moved in the 1800-1980 era have a lot more to do with the prevalence of nth generation Irish descendants than people who have moved in the last two decades of property shortages

jajag 3y ago

In Ireland's case, both apply - there's an inability to build and there's defacto rent caps. Plus until very recently, an eviction ban.

messe 3y ago
Yep, our construction sector still hasn't recovered since the crash. Combine that with some poor government policy, an increase in construction costs, as awkward planning rules (almost anybody can object to anything for almost any reason), and you have the shitshow we see today. I emigrated earlier in the year to Denmark, so while the actual pastures are less green, the rental prospects that are much nicer. It took me almost no time at all to find a rental close to my new commute (I prefer remote work, but in this case I'm dealing with actual hardware, and so physical presence is genuinely beneficial and often necessary—I can still work remotely when I need to if I have a delivery, appointment, or something I can't miss but not worth taking a whole day of leave over; and... this stream of thought comment is straying rapidly off topic, so I'll cut it off here).

CalRobert 3y ago

Very hard to build, very hard to evict (you can be a horrible tenant for years and not get kicked out), very strict price controls (they carry over to the next renter), and lo and behold people decide being a landlord isn't worth the trouble. Property tax is low too so keeping places empty isn't as unappealing as elsewhere.

gottorf 3y ago
Ah, the usual suspects, then.

pydry 3y ago

Property taxes are too low.