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Some the absolute worst managers I've ever had were the ones who were also "management coaches" or trained by them. They just read a bunch of books and blindly

Some the absolute worst managers I've ever had were the ones who were also "management coaches" or trained by them. They just read a bunch of books and blindly applied it to everything and taught others to do the same.

Propelloni 3y ago
I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees. Sure, some are better suited to the role then others, but an average person can become an average manager with time any time. Managers, like programmers or any other professional, start out as novices and get better through experience. Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what does not is actually a solid way to learn. It's basically what we do when we learn coding, with the difference that feedback circles are much shorter in coding. Maybe you could help managers learn faster by giving them feedback?
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Agreed; I think that's the key point - we often don't consider "Manager Skillset" the same way we do "Technical Skillset": 1. It takes a lot of learning 2. It takes a lot of practice 3. It's a complex landscape of skills (coaching well-performing employees, coaching under-performing employees, planning & managing a project & timelines, obtaining & managing a budget, managing client expectations, reporting at executive level, supporting technical design, etc etc are all wildly different skills and not every manager will have all of them at same level, just like not all techies will be expert in database and front end and back end and data analytics and enterprise architecture and infrastructure and networking etc:)
- iamdbtoo 3y ago
  > I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees. I agree. But in my experience the one quality that makes a good and bad manager is simply considering the humanity of your employees when making decisions. > Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what does not is actually a solid way to learn. I also agree, but I think you're assuming these managers did this and they did not. If the team was failing it was because the team wasn't following the teachings closely enough and had to be re-educated. > Maybe you could help managers learn faster by giving them feedback? These managers are not interested in feedback or learning. Why would they? They already read all the books.

Propelloni 3y ago

I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees. Sure, some are better suited to the role then others, but an average person can become an average manager with time any time. Managers, like programmers or any other professional, start out as novices and get better through experience. Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what does not is actually a solid way to learn. It's basically what we do when we learn coding, with the difference that feedback circles are much shorter in coding. Maybe you could help managers learn faster by giving them feedback?

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Agreed; I think that's the key point - we often don't consider "Manager Skillset" the same way we do "Technical Skillset": 1. It takes a lot of learning 2. It takes a lot of practice 3. It's a complex landscape of skills (coaching well-performing employees, coaching under-performing employees, planning & managing a project & timelines, obtaining & managing a budget, managing client expectations, reporting at executive level, supporting technical design, etc etc are all wildly different skills and not every manager will have all of them at same level, just like not all techies will be expert in database and front end and back end and data analytics and enterprise architecture and infrastructure and networking etc:)
iamdbtoo 3y ago
> I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees. I agree. But in my experience the one quality that makes a good and bad manager is simply considering the humanity of your employees when making decisions. > Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what does not is actually a solid way to learn. I also agree, but I think you're assuming these managers did this and they did not. If the team was failing it was because the team wasn't following the teachings closely enough and had to be re-educated. > Maybe you could help managers learn faster by giving them feedback? These managers are not interested in feedback or learning. Why would they? They already read all the books.