4 ms·

Many Americans would be happy to vote to stop destabilizing countries across the ocean, given the choice.

dfxm12 3y ago
Even if this is true, as we know, the American government is explicitly set up to not give citizens this kind of choice, so offering this as an argument is disingenuous. As a counterpoint though, consider that neocons keep getting elected to Washington every other year.
- c_crank 3y ago
  >Counterpoint: neocons keep getting elected to Washington every other year. Because the choice given to a voter is this: Vote for a democrat, who destabilizes foreign countries as a matter of course, and puts their energy into rewriting a health care bill. Vote for a neocon, who destabilizes foreign countries as a matter of course, and puts their energy into keeping gas prices and taxes a little bit lower. Vote for Trump, who actually attempts to stop destabilizing foreign countries, and gets impeached and called a terrorist by everyone who suddenly thinks NATO and aggressive foreign policy is the most important thing in the world. An actually democratic decision would be giving citizens a plebiscite, "Do you want to stop foreign intervention in X country: yes or no." It would be quite a long list, but the results of that vote would be nice to see.
- stn8188 3y ago
  I just listened to a podcast [0] this morning that mentioned the fact that the many of the same people denouncing "Team America World Police" two decades ago have flip-flopped on that attitude regarding current events in Eastern Europe. I guess this is sort of intended to go along with c_crank's reply there. [0] https://conservativenerds.locals.com/post/4567762/the-ben-heckendorn-interview-conservative-nerds-podcast-sep-11-2023 https://conservativenerds.locals.com/post/4567762/the-ben-he...
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Any comparison between the middle east and Ukraine is entirely disingenuous, because they aren't even remotely comparable. Ukraine is most comparable to when a coalition of western states freed Kuwait from Saddam.
    - mikecoles 3y ago
      Sending money to Ukraine is more comparable with sending money to President Jinping or President Maduro.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        In what way?
hindsightbias 3y ago
And most of those many will flip on a dime. Invading Iraq had something like 70% public support and Afghanistan was even higher. Of course, you can't find most of those people now. Because they're mostly flip-floppers based on their political ideologies.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Or… because they have different information now than they had then… which is a completely rational and even desirable state of affairs.
  - hindsightbias 3y ago
    They had all the information they needed then. Those chose wrong, they'll be mostly wrong now. Any ideological bent today is just as much a normie venture as it was then.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Excellent username

Even if this is true, as we know, the American government is explicitly set up to not give citizens this kind of choice, so offering this as an argument is disingenuous. As a counterpoint though, consider that neocons keep getting elected to Washington every other year.

c_crank 3y ago
>Counterpoint: neocons keep getting elected to Washington every other year. Because the choice given to a voter is this: Vote for a democrat, who destabilizes foreign countries as a matter of course, and puts their energy into rewriting a health care bill. Vote for a neocon, who destabilizes foreign countries as a matter of course, and puts their energy into keeping gas prices and taxes a little bit lower. Vote for Trump, who actually attempts to stop destabilizing foreign countries, and gets impeached and called a terrorist by everyone who suddenly thinks NATO and aggressive foreign policy is the most important thing in the world. An actually democratic decision would be giving citizens a plebiscite, "Do you want to stop foreign intervention in X country: yes or no." It would be quite a long list, but the results of that vote would be nice to see.
stn8188 3y ago
I just listened to a podcast [0] this morning that mentioned the fact that the many of the same people denouncing "Team America World Police" two decades ago have flip-flopped on that attitude regarding current events in Eastern Europe. I guess this is sort of intended to go along with c_crank's reply there. [0] https://conservativenerds.locals.com/post/4567762/the-ben-heckendorn-interview-conservative-nerds-podcast-sep-11-2023 https://conservativenerds.locals.com/post/4567762/the-ben-he...
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Any comparison between the middle east and Ukraine is entirely disingenuous, because they aren't even remotely comparable. Ukraine is most comparable to when a coalition of western states freed Kuwait from Saddam.
  - mikecoles 3y ago
    Sending money to Ukraine is more comparable with sending money to President Jinping or President Maduro.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      In what way?

hindsightbias 3y ago

And most of those many will flip on a dime. Invading Iraq had something like 70% public support and Afghanistan was even higher. Of course, you can't find most of those people now. Because they're mostly flip-floppers based on their political ideologies.

ethanbond 3y ago
Or… because they have different information now than they had then… which is a completely rational and even desirable state of affairs.
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  They had all the information they needed then. Those chose wrong, they'll be mostly wrong now. Any ideological bent today is just as much a normie venture as it was then.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Excellent username