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Yes, and then what happens when you decide to measure the state of the part of the system that lies in one region of space? If I had any good idea, I would go

Yes, and then what happens when you decide to measure the state of the part of the system that lies in one region of space? If I had any good idea, I would go pick up my Nobel Prize. The only thing I can really say is that I do not think that the wave function instantly collapses as this would be a non-unitarity evolution of the wave function. That's irrelevant, because EM is local in physics. You missed my point, I of course did not want to say that turning on the TV is a non-local interaction, just that it looks like one to humans. So if non-local interaction was all that is going on in quantum mechanics, than it would not be that hard to make sense of it, as we have an intuition for non-local interactions, even though only from things that look like non-local interactions to us but are not actually non-local interactions.

bowsamic 3y ago
> If I had any good idea, I would go pick up my Nobel Prize. Well, we already have many ideas, as summarised by the various interpretations of quantum mechanics, some of which have instantaneous non-local interaction. > The only thing I can really say is that I do not think that the wave function instantly collapses as this would be a non-unitarity evolution of the wave function. Sure, but many people do think it does, and such an interpretation is totally compatible with QM. > You missed my point, I of course did not want to say that turning on the TV is a non-local interaction, just that it looks like one to humans. So if non-local interaction was all that is going on in quantum mechanics, than it would not be that hard to make sense of it, as we have an intuition for non-local interactions, even though only from things that look like non-local interactions to us but are not actually non-local interactions. But it's irrelevant because physics isn't about what things "seem like to humans", it's about what we actually measure and how to create theories that explain and predict it.
- danbruc 3y ago
  Sure, but many people do think it does, and such an interpretation is totally compatible with QM. The Schrödinger equation and wave function collapse are not compatible. Maybe they could be integrated in some theory, but that will need a lot of additional explaining when and how the evolution changes between being unitary and non-unitary. But it's irrelevant because physics isn't about what things "seem like to humans", it's about what we actually measure and how to create theories that explain and predict it. You are still missing my point. Quantum mechanics in general and entanglement in particular are arguably hard to understand because they are unintuitive. If all that was going on were some non-local interactions, than entanglement would not be hard to understand because non-local interactions are intuitive to us because we are familiar with things that look like non-local interactions to us. Now turn this argument around. We are still having a lot of trouble making sense of quantum mechanics, therefore it seems unlikely that non-locality is at the core of quantum mechanics, because if it was and would explain everything, than it would not be so difficult to grasp quantum mechanics because we have an intuition for non-local behavior. This is obviously no rigoros argument but it was also never was meant to be one.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    > The Schrödinger equation and wave function collapse are not compatible. They don't need to be because they describe totally different phenomena. > Maybe they could be integrated in some theory, They already are integrated into the theory of quantum mechanics. Take a look at the postulates of quantum mechanics again, one of the postulates is unitary evolution through time, another is non-unitary collapse with measurement. All the experimental results of quantum mechanics are compatible with those postulates. > Quantum mechanics in general and entanglement in particular are arguably hard to understand because they are unintuitive. If all that was going on were some non-local interactions, than entanglement would not be hard to understand because non-local interactions are intuitive to us because we are familiar with things that look like non-local interactions to us. Well, entanglement _is_ intuitive in that sense, which is one of the reasons why seeing entanglement as linked with non-local collapse is so popular. > We are still having a lot of trouble making sense of quantum mechanics, therefore it seems unlikely that non-locality is at the core of quantum mechanics, because if it was and would explain everything, than it would not be so difficult to grasp quantum mechanics because we have an intuition for non-local behavior. I don't really buy this, since, quantum mechanics is intuitive and simple if we accept non-local collapse and wavefunction primacy, i.e., if you actually accept the five postulates on face value, it is not difficult to accept quantum mechanics. As a physicist myself, I don't feel bewildered or confused by quantum mechanics. I have quite a strong intuition for it, in fact.
    - danbruc 3y ago
      They don't need to be because they describe totally different phenomena. In which way are they describing different phenomena? They both describe the evolution of the wave function, the Schrödinger equation while everyone is leaving the system alone, wave function collapse at those special moments when somebody is looking at the system, performing one of those mysterious measurements. Without explaining more precisely when I should use unitary evolution and when I should collapse the wave function, the Schrödinger equation together with wave function collapse are at the very least an incomplete and maybe even an inconsistent theory.
      - 3y ago

bowsamic 3y ago

> If I had any good idea, I would go pick up my Nobel Prize. Well, we already have many ideas, as summarised by the various interpretations of quantum mechanics, some of which have instantaneous non-local interaction. > The only thing I can really say is that I do not think that the wave function instantly collapses as this would be a non-unitarity evolution of the wave function. Sure, but many people do think it does, and such an interpretation is totally compatible with QM. > You missed my point, I of course did not want to say that turning on the TV is a non-local interaction, just that it looks like one to humans. So if non-local interaction was all that is going on in quantum mechanics, than it would not be that hard to make sense of it, as we have an intuition for non-local interactions, even though only from things that look like non-local interactions to us but are not actually non-local interactions. But it's irrelevant because physics isn't about what things "seem like to humans", it's about what we actually measure and how to create theories that explain and predict it.

danbruc 3y ago
Sure, but many people do think it does, and such an interpretation is totally compatible with QM. The Schrödinger equation and wave function collapse are not compatible. Maybe they could be integrated in some theory, but that will need a lot of additional explaining when and how the evolution changes between being unitary and non-unitary. But it's irrelevant because physics isn't about what things "seem like to humans", it's about what we actually measure and how to create theories that explain and predict it. You are still missing my point. Quantum mechanics in general and entanglement in particular are arguably hard to understand because they are unintuitive. If all that was going on were some non-local interactions, than entanglement would not be hard to understand because non-local interactions are intuitive to us because we are familiar with things that look like non-local interactions to us. Now turn this argument around. We are still having a lot of trouble making sense of quantum mechanics, therefore it seems unlikely that non-locality is at the core of quantum mechanics, because if it was and would explain everything, than it would not be so difficult to grasp quantum mechanics because we have an intuition for non-local behavior. This is obviously no rigoros argument but it was also never was meant to be one.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  > The Schrödinger equation and wave function collapse are not compatible. They don't need to be because they describe totally different phenomena. > Maybe they could be integrated in some theory, They already are integrated into the theory of quantum mechanics. Take a look at the postulates of quantum mechanics again, one of the postulates is unitary evolution through time, another is non-unitary collapse with measurement. All the experimental results of quantum mechanics are compatible with those postulates. > Quantum mechanics in general and entanglement in particular are arguably hard to understand because they are unintuitive. If all that was going on were some non-local interactions, than entanglement would not be hard to understand because non-local interactions are intuitive to us because we are familiar with things that look like non-local interactions to us. Well, entanglement _is_ intuitive in that sense, which is one of the reasons why seeing entanglement as linked with non-local collapse is so popular. > We are still having a lot of trouble making sense of quantum mechanics, therefore it seems unlikely that non-locality is at the core of quantum mechanics, because if it was and would explain everything, than it would not be so difficult to grasp quantum mechanics because we have an intuition for non-local behavior. I don't really buy this, since, quantum mechanics is intuitive and simple if we accept non-local collapse and wavefunction primacy, i.e., if you actually accept the five postulates on face value, it is not difficult to accept quantum mechanics. As a physicist myself, I don't feel bewildered or confused by quantum mechanics. I have quite a strong intuition for it, in fact.
  - danbruc 3y ago
    They don't need to be because they describe totally different phenomena. In which way are they describing different phenomena? They both describe the evolution of the wave function, the Schrödinger equation while everyone is leaving the system alone, wave function collapse at those special moments when somebody is looking at the system, performing one of those mysterious measurements. Without explaining more precisely when I should use unitary evolution and when I should collapse the wave function, the Schrödinger equation together with wave function collapse are at the very least an incomplete and maybe even an inconsistent theory.
    - 3y ago