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How does it compare to the more mature Tox[0]? From a glance, it just looks heavier, more complicated, more moving pieces and opportunities for bugs. 0. https

by snvzz 3y ago

How does it compare to the more mature Tox[0]? From a glance, it just looks heavier, more complicated, more moving pieces and opportunities for bugs. 0. https://tox.chat/ https://tox.chat/

notpushkin 3y ago
And before that there was TorChat [1] and another similar program I can't remember. I think both had some UX problems, but more importantly, they are generic chat networks like WhatsApp or Telegram, while this seems to be targeted specifically at Slack users (and the whole PKI architecture they rolled sounds like a nice fit for that). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat
- holmesworcester 3y ago
  (Quiet founder here) Prior work like TorChat and Ricochet was actually a huge inspiration for Quiet. We build on their insight that if you use Tor onion services as your addresses in a peer-to-peer network, a lot of things get simpler. Where Quiet goes farther is that Richochet (and I believe TorChat) offered 1:1 synchronous message delivery where each user sends directly to another user's onion address. Group chats were not possible, and messages were delivered only when both users were online. In Quiet, having a gossip network (libp2p) and a CRDT (OrbitDB) lets us do group chats with the "eventual consistency" property that messages sent while you were offline can be synced from other peers when you return. This also allows for asynchronous message delivery of DMs in most cases: you can gossip your (encrypted) DMs to all peers, and as long as there is a continuity of syncing between peers, the recipient will be able to retrieve them even if you are no longer online. So yes, there are some more moving parts, but they let Quiet be a lot more like Slack, Discord, Signal, Messenger, and most modern messaging apps than TorChat or Ricochet were, which means Quiet can be more functional and familiar to new users looking for alternatives. I remember Tox from back in the day, but to my chagrin I have not assessed it since I started work on Quiet (I try to keep up on these things but there is so much prior work that didn't catch on for one reason or another!) At a glance, it looks like Tox supports groups, which goes beyond Ricochet. The most obvious single difference I see between Tox and Quiet right now is that Quiet is available for iOS (Testflight, for now) and Tox is not. iOS support has been a brutal slog (and the slog is not over) but it is a deal-breaker feature for every real-world team or community we have been able to talk to, so we are committed to making it work well.
KirillPanov 3y ago
Tox is the wireguard of this space.
- holmesworcester 3y ago
  I've got to do a deeper dive on Tox and see what we can learn from it, and add an entry to the "comparisons" section in our FAQ! I've been meaning to write one for BitTorrent Bleep too, which is also interesting prior art. https://github.com/TryQuiet/quiet/wiki/Quiet-FAQ#how-quiet-compares-to-similar-apps https://github.com/TryQuiet/quiet/wiki/Quiet-FAQ#how-quiet-c...
  - factormeta 3y ago
    Hmm don't see it yet on the FAQ yet.
    - holmesworcester 3y ago
      Spending too much time replying to comments!

by snvzz 3y ago

How does it compare to the more mature Tox[0]? From a glance, it just looks heavier, more complicated, more moving pieces and opportunities for bugs. 0. https://tox.chat/ https://tox.chat/

notpushkin 3y ago

And before that there was TorChat [1] and another similar program I can't remember. I think both had some UX problems, but more importantly, they are generic chat networks like WhatsApp or Telegram, while this seems to be targeted specifically at Slack users (and the whole PKI architecture they rolled sounds like a nice fit for that). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat

holmesworcester 3y ago
(Quiet founder here) Prior work like TorChat and Ricochet was actually a huge inspiration for Quiet. We build on their insight that if you use Tor onion services as your addresses in a peer-to-peer network, a lot of things get simpler. Where Quiet goes farther is that Richochet (and I believe TorChat) offered 1:1 synchronous message delivery where each user sends directly to another user's onion address. Group chats were not possible, and messages were delivered only when both users were online. In Quiet, having a gossip network (libp2p) and a CRDT (OrbitDB) lets us do group chats with the "eventual consistency" property that messages sent while you were offline can be synced from other peers when you return. This also allows for asynchronous message delivery of DMs in most cases: you can gossip your (encrypted) DMs to all peers, and as long as there is a continuity of syncing between peers, the recipient will be able to retrieve them even if you are no longer online. So yes, there are some more moving parts, but they let Quiet be a lot more like Slack, Discord, Signal, Messenger, and most modern messaging apps than TorChat or Ricochet were, which means Quiet can be more functional and familiar to new users looking for alternatives. I remember Tox from back in the day, but to my chagrin I have not assessed it since I started work on Quiet (I try to keep up on these things but there is so much prior work that didn't catch on for one reason or another!) At a glance, it looks like Tox supports groups, which goes beyond Ricochet. The most obvious single difference I see between Tox and Quiet right now is that Quiet is available for iOS (Testflight, for now) and Tox is not. iOS support has been a brutal slog (and the slog is not over) but it is a deal-breaker feature for every real-world team or community we have been able to talk to, so we are committed to making it work well.

KirillPanov 3y ago

Tox is the wireguard of this space.

holmesworcester 3y ago
I've got to do a deeper dive on Tox and see what we can learn from it, and add an entry to the "comparisons" section in our FAQ! I've been meaning to write one for BitTorrent Bleep too, which is also interesting prior art. https://github.com/TryQuiet/quiet/wiki/Quiet-FAQ#how-quiet-compares-to-similar-apps https://github.com/TryQuiet/quiet/wiki/Quiet-FAQ#how-quiet-c...
- factormeta 3y ago
  Hmm don't see it yet on the FAQ yet.
  - holmesworcester 3y ago
    Spending too much time replying to comments!