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Americans Are Losing Faith in the Value of College. Whose Fault Is That?

12 points by theoldlove 3y ago

jschveibinz 3y ago
The “value” of college can be measured in many ways: knowledge, problem-solving experience, emotional growth, vocational training and preparation, social growth and network building, credentials, and more. The cost of college education is still reasonable when community college options are used for at least the first couple of years, regardless of the course of study. Universities should bolster their cooperative education departments by extending internships and coop job placements for all majors, not just engineering, computers, math and science. Community colleges could also provide valuable post-graduate job training options for those who major in the humanities/liberal/fine arts and are looking to apply their education in unique ways to job fields that need people the most. College is important and valuable. Some changes are needed, but the market should drive those changes in a positive direction.
- Nevermark 3y ago
  From what I can tell, with perspectives from professors and administrators who are unhappy with the status quo, universities have become very administrative and non-education initiative top heavy. A much leaner focus on teaching & research might help lower tuitions for a start. And more flexible STEM degrees, I.e. customized skill path degrees, to address student (and employer) demand for specialization. Also a problem I have seen: You know a university is run by the wrong people (managers instead of leaders), when the higher up’s are hiring consultants to tell them what they should be doing to address all the changes going on.
- westcoalst 3y ago
  > The “value” of college can be measured in many ways Neat, but it rarely is because we live in a society of high wealth inequality. > Universities should bolster their cooperative education departments by extending internships and coop job placements for all majors, not just engineering, computers, math and science Why? You would need to show how that would increase shareholder profit. If it won't, it's a liability at best. > Some changes are needed, but the market should drive those changes in a positive direction. I would love to know what was going through your head when you wrote this.
  - jschveibinz 3y ago
    Thank you for commenting. It is important to know that all public colleges and universities and most private institutions are not “owned” by anyone. So they don’t have shareholders, and profit is not a consideration. https://collegeaftermath.com/university/who-is-the-owner-of-a-private-university/ https://collegeaftermath.com/university/who-is-the-owner-of-... There are some for-profit degree mills in the US that are owned by corporations, but these businesses are not the focus of my comments nor were they the focus of the original article. Even though most colleges and universities are not businesses focused on profit, they are indeed focused on growth and development. They do this (theoretically) for several reasons: 1) to protect the good name of the institution for the benefit of the students and alumni; 2) growth is better than stagnation or decline; and 3) administration is required and incentivized to do it. This costs money. Where does the money come from? Students (tuition), research (government and industry), and donations from alumni and industry. There is stiff competition between institutions to 1) attract students and 2) attract funding and donations. This competition creates a market. The universities and colleges have to provide value to students and donors-more perceived value than other institutions-to gain their interest and dollars. There used to be more government subsidies for public institutions, but those days are gone. Not all institutions are successful in the marketplace. My comment was that ultimately, students (and their parents) have the power to change the way that colleges and universities serve them by voting with their wallets.
gsky 3y ago
Personally I don't think software engineers need colleges. You could find everything you ever need to know online but one needs to have dedication and will not to get distracted.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  Go look at the OWASP Top 10. Things like injection attacks are mostly solved problems if one writes the code properly. So why have they been one of the top 10 worst vulnerabilities for nearly a decade? Because people don’t know about them and how they work. Maybe we need more than two week JavaScript boot camps.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    Most companies I've worked at don't give two shits about backend complexity, let alone owasp level security. They'd buy some compliance tool and be done. This industry doesn't care too much about quality.
    - deafpolygon 3y ago
      > This industry doesn't care too much about quality. Generally because there's just no consequences for it. Got compromised and lost millions of customer data to a hacker? An "Oops, we're sorry." is enough and everyone moves on.
  - BoorishBears 3y ago
    This is inadvertently an advertisement against the value of college (and I say that as someone who didn't go to college, but does see some value in it) Someone without college wouldn't have been distracted into thinking injection attacks boil down to needing to teach people better. Not because they inherently 'know better', but the entailment wouldn't even have a chance to register. That leaves leaves them free to think in a different direction than that... maybe on the clear misalignment between the cost of vulnerabilities and cost benefit of underfunding software development: which translates to hiring fewer people, overloading them on tighter deadlines and poorly defined scope, and just generally increasing the chance they will code "improperly". _ Now there are people who went to college and know better than to fall for that entailment, but this might demonstrate why people are losing faith in the system: Education isn't the end all-be-all it sometimes is billed as to younger folks, and the real world is not as linear as a college syllabus. Imagine a company culture where everyone has the same line of thought you just did? Those are the companies spending millions of random CYA security trainings and still letting any potential improvements to product management languish. Essentially "beatings will continue until morale improves".
kashunstva 3y ago
https://archive.ph/9rMXd https://archive.ph/9rMXd
TheGigaChad 3y ago
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12 points by theoldlove 3y ago

The “value” of college can be measured in many ways: knowledge, problem-solving experience, emotional growth, vocational training and preparation, social growth and network building, credentials, and more. The cost of college education is still reasonable when community college options are used for at least the first couple of years, regardless of the course of study. Universities should bolster their cooperative education departments by extending internships and coop job placements for all majors, not just engineering, computers, math and science. Community colleges could also provide valuable post-graduate job training options for those who major in the humanities/liberal/fine arts and are looking to apply their education in unique ways to job fields that need people the most. College is important and valuable. Some changes are needed, but the market should drive those changes in a positive direction.

Nevermark 3y ago
From what I can tell, with perspectives from professors and administrators who are unhappy with the status quo, universities have become very administrative and non-education initiative top heavy. A much leaner focus on teaching & research might help lower tuitions for a start. And more flexible STEM degrees, I.e. customized skill path degrees, to address student (and employer) demand for specialization. Also a problem I have seen: You know a university is run by the wrong people (managers instead of leaders), when the higher up’s are hiring consultants to tell them what they should be doing to address all the changes going on.
westcoalst 3y ago
> The “value” of college can be measured in many ways Neat, but it rarely is because we live in a society of high wealth inequality. > Universities should bolster their cooperative education departments by extending internships and coop job placements for all majors, not just engineering, computers, math and science Why? You would need to show how that would increase shareholder profit. If it won't, it's a liability at best. > Some changes are needed, but the market should drive those changes in a positive direction. I would love to know what was going through your head when you wrote this.
- jschveibinz 3y ago
  Thank you for commenting. It is important to know that all public colleges and universities and most private institutions are not “owned” by anyone. So they don’t have shareholders, and profit is not a consideration. https://collegeaftermath.com/university/who-is-the-owner-of-a-private-university/ https://collegeaftermath.com/university/who-is-the-owner-of-... There are some for-profit degree mills in the US that are owned by corporations, but these businesses are not the focus of my comments nor were they the focus of the original article. Even though most colleges and universities are not businesses focused on profit, they are indeed focused on growth and development. They do this (theoretically) for several reasons: 1) to protect the good name of the institution for the benefit of the students and alumni; 2) growth is better than stagnation or decline; and 3) administration is required and incentivized to do it. This costs money. Where does the money come from? Students (tuition), research (government and industry), and donations from alumni and industry. There is stiff competition between institutions to 1) attract students and 2) attract funding and donations. This competition creates a market. The universities and colleges have to provide value to students and donors-more perceived value than other institutions-to gain their interest and dollars. There used to be more government subsidies for public institutions, but those days are gone. Not all institutions are successful in the marketplace. My comment was that ultimately, students (and their parents) have the power to change the way that colleges and universities serve them by voting with their wallets.

gsky 3y ago

Personally I don't think software engineers need colleges. You could find everything you ever need to know online but one needs to have dedication and will not to get distracted.

subjectsigma 3y ago
Go look at the OWASP Top 10. Things like injection attacks are mostly solved problems if one writes the code properly. So why have they been one of the top 10 worst vulnerabilities for nearly a decade? Because people don’t know about them and how they work. Maybe we need more than two week JavaScript boot camps.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  Most companies I've worked at don't give two shits about backend complexity, let alone owasp level security. They'd buy some compliance tool and be done. This industry doesn't care too much about quality.
  - deafpolygon 3y ago
    > This industry doesn't care too much about quality. Generally because there's just no consequences for it. Got compromised and lost millions of customer data to a hacker? An "Oops, we're sorry." is enough and everyone moves on.
- BoorishBears 3y ago
  This is inadvertently an advertisement against the value of college (and I say that as someone who didn't go to college, but does see some value in it) Someone without college wouldn't have been distracted into thinking injection attacks boil down to needing to teach people better. Not because they inherently 'know better', but the entailment wouldn't even have a chance to register. That leaves leaves them free to think in a different direction than that... maybe on the clear misalignment between the cost of vulnerabilities and cost benefit of underfunding software development: which translates to hiring fewer people, overloading them on tighter deadlines and poorly defined scope, and just generally increasing the chance they will code "improperly". _ Now there are people who went to college and know better than to fall for that entailment, but this might demonstrate why people are losing faith in the system: Education isn't the end all-be-all it sometimes is billed as to younger folks, and the real world is not as linear as a college syllabus. Imagine a company culture where everyone has the same line of thought you just did? Those are the companies spending millions of random CYA security trainings and still letting any potential improvements to product management languish. Essentially "beatings will continue until morale improves".

kashunstva 3y ago

https://archive.ph/9rMXd https://archive.ph/9rMXd

TheGigaChad 3y ago

[dead]