9 ms·

For the first time in years, I’m excited by my computer purchase

97 points by pabs3 3y ago

ggm 3y ago
I wonder how hard it would be for Apple and Lenovo to back out of their design decisions back to a world where this is possible. Even with single-block-of-Aluminium it should be possible to do parts swap yourself. Taking apart Dell commercial builds is often nice, well designed plastic holders rather than screws, and thumb-screws where there are screws. The server airflow also seemed pretty rational. But I had a dell consumer grade laptop and it was a PoS. So.. things vary.
- dylan604 3y ago
  i don't think Apples single-block-of-Aluminium is the issue. it's the severely cramped space from their laser focus on thin. the mounting for user replaceable parts would prevent the thinness. look at the form factor of anything with user replaceable, and they will not be as thin. i was unable to find the Framework 13 dimensions on their Specs page so it's hard to compare.
  - ggm 3y ago
    So their path back is to stop obsessing with thin maybe?
    - dylan604 3y ago
      yes, and i believe we've already seen them relent a bit with the newer chassis with ports other than USB-C. i honestly doubt Apple will ever go back to user serviceable anything unless they are forced to like tomorrow's suspected USB-C iPhone due to EU legislation. their RAM is now part of the CPU die, so the chances of a user upgrading that are slim and none, and slim just left town. other than the SSD, there's not much left to upgrade. external USB-C SSDs are so cheap and fast now, that i'm much happier plugging in bus powered something instead of upgrading the internal. the internal can stay the OS, apps/docs, and maybe frequently used media, but everything else can stay on externals. i'm also have been around the sun too many times to fixate on the constant tinkering/upgrading of components. been there, done that, got the experience. now, i just want the damn machine to work. i'm well past getting the hardware, but fighting for days/weeks on getting some niche piece of hardware to work. not begrudging anyone that enjoys that, but i'm well past it.
  - finitestateuni 3y ago
    Mine is 15mm tick without counting the rubber feet. The feet are somewhere around 2 or 3mm.
- wmf 3y ago
  Lenovo has several repairable models (X13 IIRC) and they have some completely soldered models.
gfodor 3y ago
I honestly don't get this. I used to build my own PCs and all that but now computers are so cheap and so rapidly evolving, buying a new supercomputer beyond comprehesion every couple of years seems fine. Upgrading GPUs out of cycle seems like it might make sense but you probably should just use a desktop PC for anything using a GPU.
- zootboy 3y ago
  Honestly, I don't agree with this. The evolution of computers seems to have sharpy dwindled, to the point that I regularly switch between a 2016 Lenovo and an 2021 Framework and hardly notice the difference, at least performance-wise.
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    Maybe its your use case. I can definitely feel the difference between my 2018 and 2023 lenovo.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      definitely use case. i can bang code on pretty much any computer since it's just text. compiling or anything like that is a different story. so as long as you're not building on your older box, the coding can use the older just fine. swap hats, and go into video/photo editing, and the old box feels like a boat anchor to the process. swap hats again, and start browsing the web, now it's a mixed bag depending on how bloated the devs made the site. my 2019 MBP still handles any and all video streams. it plays back my 4k edits just fine too.
  - acchow 3y ago
    This is because Intel/Amd barely had performance improvements on Low Voltage chips since 2015. The Apple brought the M1 in 2020 and it was a huge jump
  - lucb1e 3y ago
    That's how I feel (also about smartphones), and then I try to launch any recent game and it runs at 42 FPS and I'm thinking: that's a nice number, but a better GPU would be nicer... Everything else works perfectly fine. And so I was eyeing the Framework 16 announcement, but I'm not sure I'll be happy with the ports situation (especially when a Framework costs ~double what I'd otherwise spend). Luckily, Beyond All Reason (RTS) at my skill level is still playable even at the 10~20 fps that I get near the end of a game.
_air 3y ago
https://archive.ph/JMEEX https://archive.ph/JMEEX
- neonate 3y ago
  http://web.archive.org/web/20230912014545/https://changelog.complete.org/archives/10564-for-the-first-time-in-years-im-excited-by-my-computer-purchase http://web.archive.org/web/20230912014545/https://changelog....
kelnos 3y ago
Just a note for people thinking of buying the Framework DIY edition: don't buy RAM and storage from Framework. You can get equivalent parts cheaper elsewhere. I saved around $350 when I built mine a year or so ago.
- jwells89 3y ago
  That said, it's worth keeping in mind that there are significant differences in SSD power consumption and heat output which should be factored in to SSD shopping. Even if battery life isn't a concern, if the SSD runs hot it's likely to throttle frequently in an undercooled laptop chassis which can steeply curb performance.
- neogodless 3y ago
  I suppose this is a matter of philosophy. For the sake of your own frugal wallet, your suggestion is smart! For the sake of a future that includes Framework and possibly even competitors, perhaps the blood of early adopters will be fuel. Of course, whatever you or I do, the market will sort it out, and I worry that it won't be kind to ideas like these. (Like, as cool as this is, I probably won't be getting a Framework any time in the next 2 years. I hope they are around and there are even more options for me to pick from when I'm in the market for a laptop replacement!)
  - bobsmooth 3y ago
    >whatever you or I do, the market will sort it out Are you and I not the market?
    - neogodless 3y ago
      I mean... a very small part of it :)
- lucb1e 3y ago
  DIY edition? I've done this for myself and family with any ordinary laptop. They always come with too little storage, with sometimes (not always) a 400 euros more expensive option having a normal storage size. Better to buy the specs you need and put in an 80-quid SSD yourself, then get that extra RAM a few years down the line when you start to need it and prices are reasonable (example graph https://snipboard.io/r90Bly.jpg https://snipboard.io/r90Bly.jpg for the top result for DDR4 SODIMM 16GB https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/484177/crucial-ct16g4sfd824a.html https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/484177/crucial-ct16g4sfd824a...) I wonder if this is why they started soldering on half or all of the RAM
xwdv 3y ago
I’ve been modding and upgrading thinkpads for quite some time. One thing I’ve learned, most mods just aren’t that necessary. People make mods mostly out of boredom. Once you’ve done enough and gotten over it, you’ll either just use the computer as is or get bored and buy yet another machine to mod.
javajosh 3y ago
Don't worry, the excitment will fade when you realize it's just a laptop. It does feel good to know that it's repairable, but that initial rush will die down and fade into the background. Enjoy your new computer!
mattl 3y ago
How good is Linux support on Framework machines? Is all the hardware supported? How about something like OpenBSD?
- kelnos 3y ago
  Linux is fine; all the hardware (including the fingerprint sensor) is supported. Battery life isn't super great (4-5 hours max), and the thermal design leaves much to be desired, but it's tolerable for my use (YMMV).
  - oaththrowaway 3y ago
    I get a solid 6 hours of battery if I'm not in meetings all day. I will agree with thermals though, it gets hot especially docked
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Good, but you are still at the mercy of the CPU/GPU vendors.
lucb1e 3y ago
Site takes ~20 seconds to load, but `curl`ing the URL and ctrl+shift+f'ing for "framework" yields the expected result > I like small laptops, so I ordered the Framework 13. [...] I’m glad I [ordered the DIY version], because assembly was actually FUN.
- dylan604 3y ago
 yup, this comment is epitome hacker, as well as the decision on a Framework laptop by the TFA.
 - lucb1e 3y ago
 Hah! I appreciate your reply :)
 - dylan604 3y ago
 The question I’m really wondering from your post is why is a server being hugged to death able to respond to a curl request and not a browser’s request?
 - esquivalience 3y ago
 Presumably this was just downloading the source file, not the linked images and any other heavier aspects of the page.
 - lucb1e 3y ago
 If there's enough threads on the web server being blocked by waiting for WordPress (99% of the websites that HN hugs to death are WP), then once the HTML has loaded (which, in curl, would mean the loading is complete) you are still waiting for threads to serve you the css, images, and scripts. I think in total, the curl loading time was about half of the in-browser page. Both loaded in the end, I just happened to be more patient with curl because I know the server is busy and it's not just a stupid javascript dependency that I'm waiting on.
porphyra 3y ago
I want to love Framework badly but I'm not sure if the additional thickness and worse battery life is really worth it compared to a Macbook or linux-compatible high quality laptops like the Malibal Aon S1. The latter also lets you upgrade the storage. I own a Thinkpad X1 Carbon from 2018 and to be honest I've never had to upgrade it so maybe modularity and upgradeability isn't as important to me personally...
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  And also worse thermals. If you look inside a gaming laptop like a Asus G series, the entire back of the laptop is heatpipe and heatsink, shared between cpu/gpu and stretching side to side. The modularity sacrifices this by necessity.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    I think capable cooling should be possible on a modular laptop, especially for models without a dGPU, but it’d require a thicker chassis than most people find acceptable on laptops these days.
- guideamigo_com 3y ago
  That's the hard truth, espcially with M1 chips, it is hard to beat Mac book Air 15" or Mac book Pro 16".
- jwells89 3y ago
  While my main machine is an MBP, I have uses for a small x86 laptop with great battery life and the number of options in that realm is depressingly tiny. The closest to what I want that I've been able to find so far are the HP Dragonfly G3/G4 which apparently can be cajoled into ~14h real world usage with some tuning. Nearly all x86 laptops with battery life that good or better are large.
  - porphyra 3y ago
    Try the Malibal Aon S1
gonzo41 3y ago
I dropped my Thinkpad whilst open onto a table full of drinks the other week. It was a small disaster. I'm really thrilled I just just take it apart and replace everything I broke. Keyboard and Touch pad. the ROI on this current laptop is like having a B52.
brucethemoose2 3y ago
I just built SFF RTX 3090 desktop for Llama inference and finetuning (among other things), and I am super stoked about that. More stoked than any PC in a long time. Its not productive, but it's fun. The whole generative AI field is like a big sandbox full of magic, janky crystal balls.
- finitestateuni 3y ago
  Did you post your build anywhere? Curious to know more!
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    Not yet, but its a 3090 FTW3 and a 7800X3D stuffed in a 10L Node 202, so I probably should!
duped 3y ago
I've got a gen 1 framework and use it everyday. It's fine, but looking back I would be happier with an XPS. I'd take a higher resolution OLED display over 16:10 IPS every day of the week. The track pad rocks, not as in is good but as in a seesaw because one of the mounting springs/hardware came off and now it rattles on one corner. The mainboard completely died on me and I had to replace it. Granted, I could do this myself and they shipped me a free one, but I've never had a device straight up kick the bucket on me like that. Although after board replacement, the laptop can no longer detect when it's closed so I have to use the power button to suspend it manually. The charging cable is pretty bad. I have to plug the cable into the charging brick multiple times a day because it always falls out, I have debated super gluing it in there. The overall build quality feels extremely flimsy. There is a ton of board flex. Battery life kinda sucks but I'm not going to fault Framework for that, I am running Linux and have done nothing to improve the situation on my end. Now I'm happy I bought one and that Framework exists, but I feel like a crazy person when I read nothing but stellar reviews. It's a very mid laptop. I want to add that this is not buyers remorse, just a reflection on the early adapter tax. It's my understanding many of the issues I have are fixed in recent editions. It's still a daily driver after about two years and will probably last a few more, which is better than many laptops.
- selcuka 3y ago
  > looking back I would be happier with an XPS. I don't know, I had nothing but problems with my (8th gen? Don't remember) XPS. Mostly small things that have workarounds, such as fan being always on when running Linux, but still annoying. My current MacBook pro feels much better in terms of build quality.
  - dronodeath 3y ago
    Sure but in terms of build quality does any laptop compare with a MacBook? Real question: Do you truly think the XPS is comparable to the Framework? I’ve no experience with the Framework so genuinely curious. OP seems less than impressed?
    - 3y ago
alfor 3y ago
Making things modular will make them more expensive and create more failure. Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition. Give me all the components soldered on the motherboard with a reasonable price. By the time you want to upgrade all the component are obsolete anyway. But to each their own, competition and choice is a good thing.
- rstat1 3y ago
  Nah I'll take an easily repairable machine with upgradable/replaceable parts over soldered downed unrepairable e-waste any day of the week.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- alphablended 3y ago
  > Making things modular will make them more expensive and create more failure. This may be true, but how much will the failure rate increase by? Isn't it worth the added flexibility? > Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition. One distinctive feature of the framework laptop is is minimal use of screws, to make it easier for maintenance (and tinkering I suppose).
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Failures don’t typically happen in that time frame either. My Dell from 2010 or so with detachable battery is sitting here collecting dust still works fine. I upgraded the RAM and disk in its prime as well, why it lasted so long. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Studio+XPS+1645+Battery+Replacement/106536 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Studio+XPS+1645+Battery+Re...
- yencabulator 3y ago
  > Give me all the components soldered on the motherboard That's actually undesirable for any connectors. Having connectors on separate PCBs is standard practice and lets them flex a little. Framework improves on that one more step because the adapters are on "rails", further minimizing the movement transferred to the actual USB-C port behind them.
chrismorgan 3y ago
I just looked at the preorder form for their Framework Laptop 16 DIY Edition (AMD Ryzen™ 7040 Series), and… oh, wow, they’re actually getting somewhere with genuine customisability beyond the usual components. Things like the keyboard row: as well as choosing the keyboard layout and style, which is not rare (though blank caps is seldom an option!), you can then choose what to fill the remaining space with: two spacers (probably one on each side to centre-align the keyboard, but you could left-align it, and I suppose that right-aligning would work too), of one of four colours or colour-shifting or LED matrix, or else a numpad, or else a macro pad (6×4 clear keys with RGB backlight—three more keys than the numpad which has three double-sized keys). And finally an optional discrete graphics card. (And not NVIDIA, at that.) Interesting stuff. I’ll pay definite attention to their products when seeking my next laptop. Other things I’d like: option of touch/stylus support on the screen; option of more keyboard buttons, like the extra four my ASUS Zephyrus G15 has (dedicated volume-up/volume-down/mic-mute/something-else buttons is so good and I mildly dread going back to something without this); and cluster the function row please! (that is: Esc, gap, F1–F4, gap, F5–F8, gap, F9–F12, preferable gap, Delete). I’d also prefer taller arrow keys, extending lower than the rest of the keyboard, but understand that the basic modular design is incompatible with that. And maybe better speaker arrangements… 180° or more screen hinge… yeah, I suppose I could keep on going, it’s definitely still some way off my ideal laptop, but it’s looking pretty good.
daft_pink 3y ago
I really wanted a 16, but then I became sad, when the graphics were only AMD, when I need Nvidia to run CUDA. Please Framework make Nvidia version!
quanto 3y ago
Is Framework the right laptop for those of us doing mission critical work? Lenovo, even with the default warranty, services its ThinkPads around the world. If you purchased a more advanced warranty, Lenovo will send a person to your place of choice within 24 hours on a business day and fix your machine on the spot. I did get a poor quality ThinkPad one time and it required multiple services; ThinkPads still may be higher quality than those of general consumer brands, but they are far from perfect. the fact that Lenovo is keeping its promise of quality to customers is why I am willing to pay higher prices. It is not that I do not like Framework. Like the author, I am excited about it. It is the right way to do hardware. However, Lenovo's service (and to an less extent, Apple's) is tough to beat if you are doing mission-critical work especially internationally.
riperoni 3y ago
I thoroughly enjoy frameworks approach to costumizability and focusing on a consumer-maintainable product. However, framework as a company handled a design flaw on their end in the first gen laptops and more specifically the ones with an 11th gen Intel processor really badly. which is why i won't recommend to buy or buy another one myself. See also Louis Rossmann's video about this. It has a bad circuit design on the mainboard that can prevent the laptop from starting if the CMOS battery is empty - no matter your main battery charge. The immediate solution is to plug the laptop into the wall adapter and start it. This can happen if you don't use your laptop for about a week or two. Then you just cant start it without external power. So this turns your laptop with the ability to move and use it on the go into basically a glorified desktop. It cripples its core functionality. Frameworks offers no fix. They took a while to even recognize that the issue stems from their side. The community forum was already quite pissed. Then framework insists on sending new CMOS batteries which will change very little once that battery drains. They don't accept returns, they dont offer mainboard replacements. They posted how to solder the mainboard to bridge the main battery to jump start the laptop if the CMOS battery drains, but without warranty for that and they don't offer to do it for you. So in my opinion, this was a clear way of not caring for customers needs in the end and not even standing up for mistakes they made.

97 points by pabs3 3y ago

ggm 3y ago

I wonder how hard it would be for Apple and Lenovo to back out of their design decisions back to a world where this is possible. Even with single-block-of-Aluminium it should be possible to do parts swap yourself. Taking apart Dell commercial builds is often nice, well designed plastic holders rather than screws, and thumb-screws where there are screws. The server airflow also seemed pretty rational. But I had a dell consumer grade laptop and it was a PoS. So.. things vary.

dylan604 3y ago
i don't think Apples single-block-of-Aluminium is the issue. it's the severely cramped space from their laser focus on thin. the mounting for user replaceable parts would prevent the thinness. look at the form factor of anything with user replaceable, and they will not be as thin. i was unable to find the Framework 13 dimensions on their Specs page so it's hard to compare.
- ggm 3y ago
  So their path back is to stop obsessing with thin maybe?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    yes, and i believe we've already seen them relent a bit with the newer chassis with ports other than USB-C. i honestly doubt Apple will ever go back to user serviceable anything unless they are forced to like tomorrow's suspected USB-C iPhone due to EU legislation. their RAM is now part of the CPU die, so the chances of a user upgrading that are slim and none, and slim just left town. other than the SSD, there's not much left to upgrade. external USB-C SSDs are so cheap and fast now, that i'm much happier plugging in bus powered something instead of upgrading the internal. the internal can stay the OS, apps/docs, and maybe frequently used media, but everything else can stay on externals. i'm also have been around the sun too many times to fixate on the constant tinkering/upgrading of components. been there, done that, got the experience. now, i just want the damn machine to work. i'm well past getting the hardware, but fighting for days/weeks on getting some niche piece of hardware to work. not begrudging anyone that enjoys that, but i'm well past it.
- finitestateuni 3y ago
  Mine is 15mm tick without counting the rubber feet. The feet are somewhere around 2 or 3mm.
wmf 3y ago
Lenovo has several repairable models (X13 IIRC) and they have some completely soldered models.

gfodor 3y ago

I honestly don't get this. I used to build my own PCs and all that but now computers are so cheap and so rapidly evolving, buying a new supercomputer beyond comprehesion every couple of years seems fine. Upgrading GPUs out of cycle seems like it might make sense but you probably should just use a desktop PC for anything using a GPU.

zootboy 3y ago
Honestly, I don't agree with this. The evolution of computers seems to have sharpy dwindled, to the point that I regularly switch between a 2016 Lenovo and an 2021 Framework and hardly notice the difference, at least performance-wise.
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Maybe its your use case. I can definitely feel the difference between my 2018 and 2023 lenovo.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    definitely use case. i can bang code on pretty much any computer since it's just text. compiling or anything like that is a different story. so as long as you're not building on your older box, the coding can use the older just fine. swap hats, and go into video/photo editing, and the old box feels like a boat anchor to the process. swap hats again, and start browsing the web, now it's a mixed bag depending on how bloated the devs made the site. my 2019 MBP still handles any and all video streams. it plays back my 4k edits just fine too.
- acchow 3y ago
  This is because Intel/Amd barely had performance improvements on Low Voltage chips since 2015. The Apple brought the M1 in 2020 and it was a huge jump
- lucb1e 3y ago
  That's how I feel (also about smartphones), and then I try to launch any recent game and it runs at 42 FPS and I'm thinking: that's a nice number, but a better GPU would be nicer... Everything else works perfectly fine. And so I was eyeing the Framework 16 announcement, but I'm not sure I'll be happy with the ports situation (especially when a Framework costs ~double what I'd otherwise spend). Luckily, Beyond All Reason (RTS) at my skill level is still playable even at the 10~20 fps that I get near the end of a game.

_air 3y ago

https://archive.ph/JMEEX https://archive.ph/JMEEX

neonate 3y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20230912014545/https://changelog.complete.org/archives/10564-for-the-first-time-in-years-im-excited-by-my-computer-purchase http://web.archive.org/web/20230912014545/https://changelog....

kelnos 3y ago

Just a note for people thinking of buying the Framework DIY edition: don't buy RAM and storage from Framework. You can get equivalent parts cheaper elsewhere. I saved around $350 when I built mine a year or so ago.

jwells89 3y ago
That said, it's worth keeping in mind that there are significant differences in SSD power consumption and heat output which should be factored in to SSD shopping. Even if battery life isn't a concern, if the SSD runs hot it's likely to throttle frequently in an undercooled laptop chassis which can steeply curb performance.
neogodless 3y ago
I suppose this is a matter of philosophy. For the sake of your own frugal wallet, your suggestion is smart! For the sake of a future that includes Framework and possibly even competitors, perhaps the blood of early adopters will be fuel. Of course, whatever you or I do, the market will sort it out, and I worry that it won't be kind to ideas like these. (Like, as cool as this is, I probably won't be getting a Framework any time in the next 2 years. I hope they are around and there are even more options for me to pick from when I'm in the market for a laptop replacement!)
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  >whatever you or I do, the market will sort it out Are you and I not the market?
  - neogodless 3y ago
    I mean... a very small part of it :)
lucb1e 3y ago
DIY edition? I've done this for myself and family with any ordinary laptop. They always come with too little storage, with sometimes (not always) a 400 euros more expensive option having a normal storage size. Better to buy the specs you need and put in an 80-quid SSD yourself, then get that extra RAM a few years down the line when you start to need it and prices are reasonable (example graph https://snipboard.io/r90Bly.jpg https://snipboard.io/r90Bly.jpg for the top result for DDR4 SODIMM 16GB https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/484177/crucial-ct16g4sfd824a.html https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/484177/crucial-ct16g4sfd824a...) I wonder if this is why they started soldering on half or all of the RAM

xwdv 3y ago

I’ve been modding and upgrading thinkpads for quite some time. One thing I’ve learned, most mods just aren’t that necessary. People make mods mostly out of boredom. Once you’ve done enough and gotten over it, you’ll either just use the computer as is or get bored and buy yet another machine to mod.

javajosh 3y ago

Don't worry, the excitment will fade when you realize it's just a laptop. It does feel good to know that it's repairable, but that initial rush will die down and fade into the background. Enjoy your new computer!

mattl 3y ago

How good is Linux support on Framework machines? Is all the hardware supported? How about something like OpenBSD?

kelnos 3y ago
Linux is fine; all the hardware (including the fingerprint sensor) is supported. Battery life isn't super great (4-5 hours max), and the thermal design leaves much to be desired, but it's tolerable for my use (YMMV).
- oaththrowaway 3y ago
  I get a solid 6 hours of battery if I'm not in meetings all day. I will agree with thermals though, it gets hot especially docked
brucethemoose2 3y ago
Good, but you are still at the mercy of the CPU/GPU vendors.

lucb1e 3y ago

Site takes ~20 seconds to load, but `curl`ing the URL and ctrl+shift+f'ing for "framework" yields the expected result > I like small laptops, so I ordered the Framework 13. [...] I’m glad I [ordered the DIY version], because assembly was actually FUN.

dylan604 3y ago
yup, this comment is epitome hacker, as well as the decision on a Framework laptop by the TFA.
- lucb1e 3y ago
  Hah! I appreciate your reply :)
  - dylan604 3y ago
    The question I’m really wondering from your post is why is a server being hugged to death able to respond to a curl request and not a browser’s request?
    - esquivalience 3y ago
      Presumably this was just downloading the source file, not the linked images and any other heavier aspects of the page.
    - lucb1e 3y ago
      If there's enough threads on the web server being blocked by waiting for WordPress (99% of the websites that HN hugs to death are WP), then once the HTML has loaded (which, in curl, would mean the loading is complete) you are still waiting for threads to serve you the css, images, and scripts. I think in total, the curl loading time was about half of the in-browser page. Both loaded in the end, I just happened to be more patient with curl because I know the server is busy and it's not just a stupid javascript dependency that I'm waiting on.

porphyra 3y ago

I want to love Framework badly but I'm not sure if the additional thickness and worse battery life is really worth it compared to a Macbook or linux-compatible high quality laptops like the Malibal Aon S1. The latter also lets you upgrade the storage. I own a Thinkpad X1 Carbon from 2018 and to be honest I've never had to upgrade it so maybe modularity and upgradeability isn't as important to me personally...

brucethemoose2 3y ago
And also worse thermals. If you look inside a gaming laptop like a Asus G series, the entire back of the laptop is heatpipe and heatsink, shared between cpu/gpu and stretching side to side. The modularity sacrifices this by necessity.
- jwells89 3y ago
  I think capable cooling should be possible on a modular laptop, especially for models without a dGPU, but it’d require a thicker chassis than most people find acceptable on laptops these days.
guideamigo_com 3y ago
That's the hard truth, espcially with M1 chips, it is hard to beat Mac book Air 15" or Mac book Pro 16".
jwells89 3y ago
While my main machine is an MBP, I have uses for a small x86 laptop with great battery life and the number of options in that realm is depressingly tiny. The closest to what I want that I've been able to find so far are the HP Dragonfly G3/G4 which apparently can be cajoled into ~14h real world usage with some tuning. Nearly all x86 laptops with battery life that good or better are large.
- porphyra 3y ago
  Try the Malibal Aon S1

gonzo41 3y ago

I dropped my Thinkpad whilst open onto a table full of drinks the other week. It was a small disaster. I'm really thrilled I just just take it apart and replace everything I broke. Keyboard and Touch pad. the ROI on this current laptop is like having a B52.

brucethemoose2 3y ago

I just built SFF RTX 3090 desktop for Llama inference and finetuning (among other things), and I am super stoked about that. More stoked than any PC in a long time. Its not productive, but it's fun. The whole generative AI field is like a big sandbox full of magic, janky crystal balls.

finitestateuni 3y ago
Did you post your build anywhere? Curious to know more!
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Not yet, but its a 3090 FTW3 and a 7800X3D stuffed in a 10L Node 202, so I probably should!

duped 3y ago

I've got a gen 1 framework and use it everyday. It's fine, but looking back I would be happier with an XPS. I'd take a higher resolution OLED display over 16:10 IPS every day of the week. The track pad rocks, not as in is good but as in a seesaw because one of the mounting springs/hardware came off and now it rattles on one corner. The mainboard completely died on me and I had to replace it. Granted, I could do this myself and they shipped me a free one, but I've never had a device straight up kick the bucket on me like that. Although after board replacement, the laptop can no longer detect when it's closed so I have to use the power button to suspend it manually. The charging cable is pretty bad. I have to plug the cable into the charging brick multiple times a day because it always falls out, I have debated super gluing it in there. The overall build quality feels extremely flimsy. There is a ton of board flex. Battery life kinda sucks but I'm not going to fault Framework for that, I am running Linux and have done nothing to improve the situation on my end. Now I'm happy I bought one and that Framework exists, but I feel like a crazy person when I read nothing but stellar reviews. It's a very mid laptop. I want to add that this is not buyers remorse, just a reflection on the early adapter tax. It's my understanding many of the issues I have are fixed in recent editions. It's still a daily driver after about two years and will probably last a few more, which is better than many laptops.

selcuka 3y ago
> looking back I would be happier with an XPS. I don't know, I had nothing but problems with my (8th gen? Don't remember) XPS. Mostly small things that have workarounds, such as fan being always on when running Linux, but still annoying. My current MacBook pro feels much better in terms of build quality.
- dronodeath 3y ago
  Sure but in terms of build quality does any laptop compare with a MacBook? Real question: Do you truly think the XPS is comparable to the Framework? I’ve no experience with the Framework so genuinely curious. OP seems less than impressed?
  - 3y ago

alfor 3y ago

Making things modular will make them more expensive and create more failure. Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition. Give me all the components soldered on the motherboard with a reasonable price. By the time you want to upgrade all the component are obsolete anyway. But to each their own, competition and choice is a good thing.

rstat1 3y ago
Nah I'll take an easily repairable machine with upgradable/replaceable parts over soldered downed unrepairable e-waste any day of the week.
- deleted 3y ago
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alphablended 3y ago
> Making things modular will make them more expensive and create more failure. This may be true, but how much will the failure rate increase by? Isn't it worth the added flexibility? > Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition. One distinctive feature of the framework laptop is is minimal use of screws, to make it easier for maintenance (and tinkering I suppose).
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Failures don’t typically happen in that time frame either. My Dell from 2010 or so with detachable battery is sitting here collecting dust still works fine. I upgraded the RAM and disk in its prime as well, why it lasted so long. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Studio+XPS+1645+Battery+Replacement/106536 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Studio+XPS+1645+Battery+Re...
yencabulator 3y ago
> Give me all the components soldered on the motherboard That's actually undesirable for any connectors. Having connectors on separate PCBs is standard practice and lets them flex a little. Framework improves on that one more step because the adapters are on "rails", further minimizing the movement transferred to the actual USB-C port behind them.

chrismorgan 3y ago

I just looked at the preorder form for their Framework Laptop 16 DIY Edition (AMD Ryzen™ 7040 Series), and… oh, wow, they’re actually getting somewhere with genuine customisability beyond the usual components. Things like the keyboard row: as well as choosing the keyboard layout and style, which is not rare (though blank caps is seldom an option!), you can then choose what to fill the remaining space with: two spacers (probably one on each side to centre-align the keyboard, but you could left-align it, and I suppose that right-aligning would work too), of one of four colours or colour-shifting or LED matrix, or else a numpad, or else a macro pad (6×4 clear keys with RGB backlight—three more keys than the numpad which has three double-sized keys). And finally an optional discrete graphics card. (And not NVIDIA, at that.) Interesting stuff. I’ll pay definite attention to their products when seeking my next laptop. Other things I’d like: option of touch/stylus support on the screen; option of more keyboard buttons, like the extra four my ASUS Zephyrus G15 has (dedicated volume-up/volume-down/mic-mute/something-else buttons is so good and I mildly dread going back to something without this); and cluster the function row please! (that is: Esc, gap, F1–F4, gap, F5–F8, gap, F9–F12, preferable gap, Delete). I’d also prefer taller arrow keys, extending lower than the rest of the keyboard, but understand that the basic modular design is incompatible with that. And maybe better speaker arrangements… 180° or more screen hinge… yeah, I suppose I could keep on going, it’s definitely still some way off my ideal laptop, but it’s looking pretty good.

daft_pink 3y ago

I really wanted a 16, but then I became sad, when the graphics were only AMD, when I need Nvidia to run CUDA. Please Framework make Nvidia version!

quanto 3y ago

Is Framework the right laptop for those of us doing mission critical work? Lenovo, even with the default warranty, services its ThinkPads around the world. If you purchased a more advanced warranty, Lenovo will send a person to your place of choice within 24 hours on a business day and fix your machine on the spot. I did get a poor quality ThinkPad one time and it required multiple services; ThinkPads still may be higher quality than those of general consumer brands, but they are far from perfect. the fact that Lenovo is keeping its promise of quality to customers is why I am willing to pay higher prices. It is not that I do not like Framework. Like the author, I am excited about it. It is the right way to do hardware. However, Lenovo's service (and to an less extent, Apple's) is tough to beat if you are doing mission-critical work especially internationally.

riperoni 3y ago

I thoroughly enjoy frameworks approach to costumizability and focusing on a consumer-maintainable product. However, framework as a company handled a design flaw on their end in the first gen laptops and more specifically the ones with an 11th gen Intel processor really badly. which is why i won't recommend to buy or buy another one myself. See also Louis Rossmann's video about this. It has a bad circuit design on the mainboard that can prevent the laptop from starting if the CMOS battery is empty - no matter your main battery charge. The immediate solution is to plug the laptop into the wall adapter and start it. This can happen if you don't use your laptop for about a week or two. Then you just cant start it without external power. So this turns your laptop with the ability to move and use it on the go into basically a glorified desktop. It cripples its core functionality. Frameworks offers no fix. They took a while to even recognize that the issue stems from their side. The community forum was already quite pissed. Then framework insists on sending new CMOS batteries which will change very little once that battery drains. They don't accept returns, they dont offer mainboard replacements. They posted how to solder the mainboard to bridge the main battery to jump start the laptop if the CMOS battery drains, but without warranty for that and they don't offer to do it for you. So in my opinion, this was a clear way of not caring for customers needs in the end and not even standing up for mistakes they made.