4 ms·

1. Pilots occasionally have to fat finger them into ruggedized I/O devices and read them off to ATC over radios. 2. These are defined by the various regional a

1. Pilots occasionally have to fat finger them into ruggedized I/O devices and read them off to ATC over radios. 2. These are defined by the various regional aviation authorities. The US FAA will define one list, (and they'll be unique in the US) the EU will have one, (EASA?) etc. The AA965 crash (1995-12-20) was due to an aliased waypoint name. Colombia had two waypoints with the same name within 150 nautical miles of each other. (the name was 'R') This was in violation of ICAO regulations from like the '70s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965

DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
> Pilots occasionally have to fat finger them into ruggedized I/O devices you're saying what-3-words (W3W) is unsuitable for safety critical applications ? /s
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  I'm trying to imagine someone ensuring differentiation between minimums.unsettled.depends (Idaho), minimums.unsettled.depend (Alaska), minimums.unsettles.depend (Spain), and minimum.unsettles.depend (Russia) while typing them in on a t-9 style keypad with a 7 figure display in turbulence.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That's easily fixed – just spell them out using the ICAO spelling alphabet!
  - jonny_eh 3y ago
    That seems like a huge flaw in their system, has it never been addressed?
    - wlonkly 3y ago
      No, and by my understanding it can't be, as the algorithm is now permanent. But it's worse than that, there are confusables within small distances of each other: https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/ https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-su... https://w3w.me.ss/ https://w3w.me.ss/
      - pmarreck 3y ago
        Since the app gives you the words to say, and translates those back to coordinates on the receiving end, in theory they could alter the word list, at the cost of making any written-down version obsolete. Maybe they should release a new service called What4ActuallyVettedWordsAndWordCombinations ;)
        iudqnolq 3y ago
        Aren't they trying to turn their word list into a subscription service? Obsoleting paper copies might be a feature.
  - pmarreck 3y ago
    I can't believe the What3Words person or people didn't normalize all words to be singular before canonizing the list. That's ridiculous.
    - thombat 3y ago
      The word list is 40,000 long, so without plurals probably there aren't enough words that people could spell or even pronounce. A better fix would be making it "what four words" - I wonder if they'd already committed too much to the "three" concept before discovering the flaw? Either way, using phony statistics to make unwarrantable claims of accuracy is a poor workaround.
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  Something like what3words might be useful, but what3words itself doesn't have enough "auditory distance" between words. (i.e. - there are some/many words used by what3words that sound similar enough to be indistinguishable over an audio channel with noise.) Something like FixPhrase seems better for use over radio.
  - gorkish 3y ago
    I mean there is the ICAO phonetic alphabet already known and used by every single licensed pilot the world over, regardless of their native language. or, or... hang with me here for a minute... We could instead use one of these cool new hash algorithms that require a computer and use about fifteen thousand English words! I understand they are all the rage in the third world countries that lack a postal system.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      These are all lovely technical solutions. The problem I imagine isn't coming up with unique words. The problem is organizing a switchover for dozens if not hundreds of systems and agencies around the world. The chaos of change is probably out weighing the benefits.
  - pmarreck 3y ago
    There are a number of word lists whose words were picked due to their beneficial properties given the use-case of possibly needing to be understood verbally over unclear connections. The NATO phonetic alphabet, and PGP word lists come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list I'm particularly a fan of the PGP word list (it would definitely require more than 3 words for this purpose, though) because it has built-in error detection (of transposition, insertion or deletion): Separate word lists are used for "even" and "odd" hex digits. This makes it, IMHO, fairly ideal for use over verbal channels. From the wiki: "The words were carefully chosen for their phonetic distinctiveness, using genetic algorithms to select lists of words that had optimum separations in phoneme space" It sounds like the w3w folks did not do any such thing EDIT: According to my napkin math, 6 PGP words should be enough to cover the 64 trillion coordinates that "what3words" covers, but with way better properties such as error detection and phonetic incongruity (and not only that, it is just over 4 times larger, which means it can achieve a resolution of 5 feet instead of 10)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- amatecha 3y ago
  Many authorities on the subject warn against using W3W for safety-critical applications.[0][1][2] Personally I could imagine that Maidenhead Locator System[3] may be more useful. It's just 4-12 chars (depending on what degree of accuracy you need) [0] https://www.summerlandreview.com/news/bc-search-and-rescue-groups-warning-against-use-of-what3words-app/ https://www.summerlandreview.com/news/bc-search-and-rescue-g... [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/8258671/north-shore-rescue-what3words-geolocation-app/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8258671/north-shore-rescue-what3w... [2] https://www.squamishchief.com/local-news/squamish-search-and-rescue-does-not-support-what3words-application-4516388 https://www.squamishchief.com/local-news/squamish-search-and... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System
tim333 3y ago
You could maybe make them globally unique by adding the country where appropriate like we do with Paris, France vs Paris, Texas? And not using the same name twice in the same country.

DyslexicAtheist 3y ago

> Pilots occasionally have to fat finger them into ruggedized I/O devices you're saying what-3-words (W3W) is unsuitable for safety critical applications ? /s

joshuamorton 3y ago
I'm trying to imagine someone ensuring differentiation between minimums.unsettled.depends (Idaho), minimums.unsettled.depend (Alaska), minimums.unsettles.depend (Spain), and minimum.unsettles.depend (Russia) while typing them in on a t-9 style keypad with a 7 figure display in turbulence.
- lxgr 3y ago
  That's easily fixed – just spell them out using the ICAO spelling alphabet!
- jonny_eh 3y ago
  That seems like a huge flaw in their system, has it never been addressed?
  - wlonkly 3y ago
    No, and by my understanding it can't be, as the algorithm is now permanent. But it's worse than that, there are confusables within small distances of each other: https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/ https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-su... https://w3w.me.ss/ https://w3w.me.ss/
    - pmarreck 3y ago
      Since the app gives you the words to say, and translates those back to coordinates on the receiving end, in theory they could alter the word list, at the cost of making any written-down version obsolete. Maybe they should release a new service called What4ActuallyVettedWordsAndWordCombinations ;)
      - iudqnolq 3y ago
        Aren't they trying to turn their word list into a subscription service? Obsoleting paper copies might be a feature.
- pmarreck 3y ago
  I can't believe the What3Words person or people didn't normalize all words to be singular before canonizing the list. That's ridiculous.
  - thombat 3y ago
    The word list is 40,000 long, so without plurals probably there aren't enough words that people could spell or even pronounce. A better fix would be making it "what four words" - I wonder if they'd already committed too much to the "three" concept before discovering the flaw? Either way, using phony statistics to make unwarrantable claims of accuracy is a poor workaround.
retrocryptid 3y ago
Something like what3words might be useful, but what3words itself doesn't have enough "auditory distance" between words. (i.e. - there are some/many words used by what3words that sound similar enough to be indistinguishable over an audio channel with noise.) Something like FixPhrase seems better for use over radio.
- gorkish 3y ago
  I mean there is the ICAO phonetic alphabet already known and used by every single licensed pilot the world over, regardless of their native language. or, or... hang with me here for a minute... We could instead use one of these cool new hash algorithms that require a computer and use about fifteen thousand English words! I understand they are all the rage in the third world countries that lack a postal system.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    These are all lovely technical solutions. The problem I imagine isn't coming up with unique words. The problem is organizing a switchover for dozens if not hundreds of systems and agencies around the world. The chaos of change is probably out weighing the benefits.
- pmarreck 3y ago
  There are a number of word lists whose words were picked due to their beneficial properties given the use-case of possibly needing to be understood verbally over unclear connections. The NATO phonetic alphabet, and PGP word lists come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list I'm particularly a fan of the PGP word list (it would definitely require more than 3 words for this purpose, though) because it has built-in error detection (of transposition, insertion or deletion): Separate word lists are used for "even" and "odd" hex digits. This makes it, IMHO, fairly ideal for use over verbal channels. From the wiki: "The words were carefully chosen for their phonetic distinctiveness, using genetic algorithms to select lists of words that had optimum separations in phoneme space" It sounds like the w3w folks did not do any such thing EDIT: According to my napkin math, 6 PGP words should be enough to cover the 64 trillion coordinates that "what3words" covers, but with way better properties such as error detection and phonetic incongruity (and not only that, it is just over 4 times larger, which means it can achieve a resolution of 5 feet instead of 10)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
amatecha 3y ago
Many authorities on the subject warn against using W3W for safety-critical applications.[0][1][2] Personally I could imagine that Maidenhead Locator System[3] may be more useful. It's just 4-12 chars (depending on what degree of accuracy you need) [0] https://www.summerlandreview.com/news/bc-search-and-rescue-groups-warning-against-use-of-what3words-app/ https://www.summerlandreview.com/news/bc-search-and-rescue-g... [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/8258671/north-shore-rescue-what3words-geolocation-app/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8258671/north-shore-rescue-what3w... [2] https://www.squamishchief.com/local-news/squamish-search-and-rescue-does-not-support-what3words-application-4516388 https://www.squamishchief.com/local-news/squamish-search-and... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System

tim333 3y ago

You could maybe make them globally unique by adding the country where appropriate like we do with Paris, France vs Paris, Texas? And not using the same name twice in the same country.