4 ms·

I would define "real" as existing in 3D physical reality, not a mental state. One test for reality, given this definition, is to remove all the humans from the

by johnea 3y ago

I would define "real" as existing in 3D physical reality, not a mental state. One test for reality, given this definition, is to remove all the humans from the scene. Afterward, does the situation still exist? If not, then it's a fantasy state. What many people consider to be "reality", is just humans agreeing to a given abstraction, like money. It's completely fictional. We just all agree to go along with the fantasy (try not going along with it and see how long it takes for guys w/ guns to show up at your door). In many cases the only "reality" to these abstractions are human willingness to exert physical violence against those that don't comply. To reassert from the original comment: not all of these abstractions are "bad", many are necessary for civilized life. But retaining the ability to distiquish the difference is also mandatory for staying grounded in "reality". A condition with is vanishing among many (first world) people...

dragonwriter 3y ago
> One test for reality, given this definition, is to remove all the humans from the scene. Afterward, does the situation still exist? > If not, then it’s a fantasy state. So, humans themselves are a “fantasy state” and not part of “reality”? Your test seems to be based on a rather bizarre conception of reality that is particularly unsuited for any use by or relating to interests of concern to humans.
- johnea 3y ago
  Humans are very much a part of reality, but our individual mental state is only very tenuously connected to it. The nuero-electrical activity is very real, but the castles in the sky we imagine these mental states to represent are not. I'm not at all surprised that people don't/can't/won't recognise the difference, as it often directly interferes with an individual's "identity" or other fictional mental states that people hold very dear. Hang on to your "dreams" as much as you want, it's your life! But in the end reality will exert it's dominance. We'll each die, and everyone else will bury us and ignore the reality that was just enforced and continue with their individual dream states... A macro example of this is the "demographic crisis" over declining population, when nearly every physical crisis in progress in the modern world is due to massive human over-population. We'll continue with the dream state, and eventually physical reality will take it's toll...
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    How did you infer anything about an external reality except for using the tenuous human senses? It’s weird to say that the external objective reality is real when you’ve only ever inferred its presence through a pale reflection on the subject
    - johnea 3y ago
      You know, when I read this after clicking "reply", I realized it could sound harsh. I didn't mean it to be that way, it was just an example. Please! Don't actually step in front of a bus! It's just a thought experiment! --- org message --- There's a very simple test for the existence of objective physical reality: Step out in front of a bus You can even start by very ernestly ensuring yourself that the bus is just a figment of your tenuous senses. The outcome is obvious. I wonder why you're so determined to deny that physical reality isn't the same as our inner imaginings... --- end org statement --- The general answer to how we know what's real and what's a dream is: Experiment. We can cogitate on what we do perceive and construct scenarios, the outcomme of which tell us more about what's "out there". Then we can use that new info to cogitate again and construct even more suble experiments. The scientific process...
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        But the experiment and its result are also seen and verified purely within the mind
bowsamic 3y ago
I don’t understand why humans are the one thing you have decided to exclude from reality when all the things we know about reality is from human perception > try not going along with it and see how long it takes for guys w/ guns to show up at your door I have no idea what this is referring to

by johnea 3y ago

dragonwriter 3y ago

> One test for reality, given this definition, is to remove all the humans from the scene. Afterward, does the situation still exist? > If not, then it’s a fantasy state. So, humans themselves are a “fantasy state” and not part of “reality”? Your test seems to be based on a rather bizarre conception of reality that is particularly unsuited for any use by or relating to interests of concern to humans.

johnea 3y ago
Humans are very much a part of reality, but our individual mental state is only very tenuously connected to it. The nuero-electrical activity is very real, but the castles in the sky we imagine these mental states to represent are not. I'm not at all surprised that people don't/can't/won't recognise the difference, as it often directly interferes with an individual's "identity" or other fictional mental states that people hold very dear. Hang on to your "dreams" as much as you want, it's your life! But in the end reality will exert it's dominance. We'll each die, and everyone else will bury us and ignore the reality that was just enforced and continue with their individual dream states... A macro example of this is the "demographic crisis" over declining population, when nearly every physical crisis in progress in the modern world is due to massive human over-population. We'll continue with the dream state, and eventually physical reality will take it's toll...
- bowsamic 3y ago
  How did you infer anything about an external reality except for using the tenuous human senses? It’s weird to say that the external objective reality is real when you’ve only ever inferred its presence through a pale reflection on the subject
  - johnea 3y ago
    You know, when I read this after clicking "reply", I realized it could sound harsh. I didn't mean it to be that way, it was just an example. Please! Don't actually step in front of a bus! It's just a thought experiment! --- org message --- There's a very simple test for the existence of objective physical reality: Step out in front of a bus You can even start by very ernestly ensuring yourself that the bus is just a figment of your tenuous senses. The outcome is obvious. I wonder why you're so determined to deny that physical reality isn't the same as our inner imaginings... --- end org statement --- The general answer to how we know what's real and what's a dream is: Experiment. We can cogitate on what we do perceive and construct scenarios, the outcomme of which tell us more about what's "out there". Then we can use that new info to cogitate again and construct even more suble experiments. The scientific process...
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      But the experiment and its result are also seen and verified purely within the mind

bowsamic 3y ago

I don’t understand why humans are the one thing you have decided to exclude from reality when all the things we know about reality is from human perception > try not going along with it and see how long it takes for guys w/ guns to show up at your door I have no idea what this is referring to