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If no EV has the range you require you are a tiny minority of car users. Current Tesla models can have a 300+ miles/500+ km range. I've driven a Tesla Model 3 o

by tfourb 3y ago

If no EV has the range you require you are a tiny minority of car users. Current Tesla models can have a 300+ miles/500+ km range. I've driven a Tesla Model 3 on long road trips and the range is more or less limitless in praxis: every few hours I stop to visit the restroom, grab a bite to eat or a coffee and in the time that takes me the Tesla loads for another few hours on the road. So yes, you may have very specific needs that limit your choice of vehicles. But the needs of the vast majority of car owners can be served by current EV technology perfectly well. Apart from that: EVs have less moving parts by an order of magnitude compared to ICE cars. Of course they are more reliable, especially when you take into account that many (most?) drivers do not adhere to the very stringent service/fluid change intervals on their cars. Again, you might be different, but most people abuse their cars. My parent's VW T5 for example just crossed 350.000 miles and already had several minor engine issues in addition to a costly particle filter swap.

b112 3y ago
If no EV has the range you require you are a tiny minority of car users. All supposition, much as your assertions about reliability. Reliability doesn't come from the amount of moving parts alone. You're just theorizing, which is fine in of itself, but not when you present it as fact.
- tfourb 3y ago
  The average car in Germany is making two trips per day, 15km each: https://umwelt-fragen.de/durchschnittliche-autostrecke-in-deutschland/ https://umwelt-fragen.de/durchschnittliche-autostrecke-in-de... So more or less a very typical commute. My 2016 Nissan Leaf could do this daily drive for 5 days without recharging, today's model's can do half a month of this before the battery is empty. Again: your needs might be on the extreme end and not suited to an EV (currently) but you are the absolute exception. This is not theorizing, it has been well studied and established.
  - b112 3y ago
    This is not theorizing, it has been well studied and established. For a densely populated country such as Germany, you have provided one study which speaks of averages. Of course, this doesn't show the spread of that average. And of course, it is ridiculous to presume this is normal, as we all know how densely packed Germany is. You are trying to claim that one of the outliers, that is, German driving habits, is an average!
    - tfourb 3y ago
      In 2017, the average US household made 5.1 daily vehicle trips with a length of 9.6 miles: https://www.bts.gov/content/average-annual-pmt-vmt-person-trips-and-trip-length-trip-purpose https://www.bts.gov/content/average-annual-pmt-vmt-person-tr... This is more than the average German car drives daily, but still perfectly manageable for modern (or even 5 year old) EVs. Even assuming an EV can't be charged anywhere, it could still handle 6 days worth of these trips. Even if you commute 300+ miles daily, you could probably spend 20 minutes per trip at a public charger. Again, maybe this isn't for you. That is fine. But EVs are perfectly suitable for the vast majority of car users and it would be up to you at this point to disprove that statement.
      - b112 3y ago
        There are people who drive their car once a week, to get groceries. There are people who live 100km from work. As I said prior, what is the spread? And beyond that, if someone drives very little for 8 months, then drives a lot for 4 months, which happens a lot (kids, summer, vacations, cabins in the summer)... Many people have range anxiety. People keep saying it's silly, and keep explaining why. How about you just realise, instead, people with range anxiety aren't morons, and 100% have made a valid assessment?
        tfourb 3y ago
        How about you provide some data instead of anecdotes. You requested the same from me and I provided. Of course people aren't "morons" and I never said as much. But people generally do what they are used to and what trusted authorities (and I use that term deliberately loosely) tell them what is ok. Nobody has time to research every little aspect of their lives in-depth to make a completely informed decision. So if people like you are telling everyone who will listen "many/most people will not be served well by an EV," that has consequences, the same way as if I would tell people "there is no justification whatsoever to drive an ICE" (which I'm explicitly not doing). I've looked into this quite a bit and all data I can find points to EVs being a smart choice for most people if they intend to buy a new car or if they can find a suitable used one (the market availability for the latter is still small). It should be the natural choice if there is not some special circumstance in your life (as seems to be in yours).
JAlexoid 3y ago
> My parent's VW T5 for example just crossed 350.000 miles and already had several minor engine issues in addition to a costly particle filter swap. It's funny, because my $70k Tesla Model Y will have to have it's whole battery pack replaced by the time it reaches 155k Miles. Can you guess which part of any Tesla is the most expensive one? The damn battery pack... Now compare replacing the whole car(yes, you can't just replace the battery pack) to VW having just "several minor engine issues in addition to a costly particle filter swap". I like EVs and will switch my Chevy Colorado to an EV as soon as possible(they're always sold out). But your example is quite literally proof, that an ICE will outlast an EV.
- tfourb 3y ago
  If that's your experience with an EV it's most likely a warranty issue. Happens with ICE cars as well. So far, battery degradation for EV batteries (Tesla's to be exact) has been much less severe as has been feared: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... (also: I mistyped in my above comment. I meant to say 250.000km not 350.000 miles. Sorry about that)
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    While you're at it you might as well go straight to Megameters which is much more fun.
  - JAlexoid 3y ago
    So far most Teslas aren't exactly old enough to even consider using this data. We know ICEs can last for decades. We don't know how long Li-ion based EVs will last, practically. Theoretically they will not last as much as ICE. While we don't have conclusive data - let's not pretend that anything about EV's longevity is a fact. The only fact about EVs - they haven't been out long enough to make a statement based on empirical evidence. (Take it from an EV advocate in general and someone heavily invested in Tesla stock)
    - tfourb 3y ago

by tfourb 3y ago

b112 3y ago

If no EV has the range you require you are a tiny minority of car users. All supposition, much as your assertions about reliability. Reliability doesn't come from the amount of moving parts alone. You're just theorizing, which is fine in of itself, but not when you present it as fact.

tfourb 3y ago
The average car in Germany is making two trips per day, 15km each: https://umwelt-fragen.de/durchschnittliche-autostrecke-in-deutschland/ https://umwelt-fragen.de/durchschnittliche-autostrecke-in-de... So more or less a very typical commute. My 2016 Nissan Leaf could do this daily drive for 5 days without recharging, today's model's can do half a month of this before the battery is empty. Again: your needs might be on the extreme end and not suited to an EV (currently) but you are the absolute exception. This is not theorizing, it has been well studied and established.
- b112 3y ago
  This is not theorizing, it has been well studied and established. For a densely populated country such as Germany, you have provided one study which speaks of averages. Of course, this doesn't show the spread of that average. And of course, it is ridiculous to presume this is normal, as we all know how densely packed Germany is. You are trying to claim that one of the outliers, that is, German driving habits, is an average!
  - tfourb 3y ago
    In 2017, the average US household made 5.1 daily vehicle trips with a length of 9.6 miles: https://www.bts.gov/content/average-annual-pmt-vmt-person-trips-and-trip-length-trip-purpose https://www.bts.gov/content/average-annual-pmt-vmt-person-tr... This is more than the average German car drives daily, but still perfectly manageable for modern (or even 5 year old) EVs. Even assuming an EV can't be charged anywhere, it could still handle 6 days worth of these trips. Even if you commute 300+ miles daily, you could probably spend 20 minutes per trip at a public charger. Again, maybe this isn't for you. That is fine. But EVs are perfectly suitable for the vast majority of car users and it would be up to you at this point to disprove that statement.
    - b112 3y ago
      There are people who drive their car once a week, to get groceries. There are people who live 100km from work. As I said prior, what is the spread? And beyond that, if someone drives very little for 8 months, then drives a lot for 4 months, which happens a lot (kids, summer, vacations, cabins in the summer)... Many people have range anxiety. People keep saying it's silly, and keep explaining why. How about you just realise, instead, people with range anxiety aren't morons, and 100% have made a valid assessment?
      - tfourb 3y ago
        How about you provide some data instead of anecdotes. You requested the same from me and I provided. Of course people aren't "morons" and I never said as much. But people generally do what they are used to and what trusted authorities (and I use that term deliberately loosely) tell them what is ok. Nobody has time to research every little aspect of their lives in-depth to make a completely informed decision. So if people like you are telling everyone who will listen "many/most people will not be served well by an EV," that has consequences, the same way as if I would tell people "there is no justification whatsoever to drive an ICE" (which I'm explicitly not doing). I've looked into this quite a bit and all data I can find points to EVs being a smart choice for most people if they intend to buy a new car or if they can find a suitable used one (the market availability for the latter is still small). It should be the natural choice if there is not some special circumstance in your life (as seems to be in yours).

JAlexoid 3y ago

> My parent's VW T5 for example just crossed 350.000 miles and already had several minor engine issues in addition to a costly particle filter swap. It's funny, because my $70k Tesla Model Y will have to have it's whole battery pack replaced by the time it reaches 155k Miles. Can you guess which part of any Tesla is the most expensive one? The damn battery pack... Now compare replacing the whole car(yes, you can't just replace the battery pack) to VW having just "several minor engine issues in addition to a costly particle filter swap". I like EVs and will switch my Chevy Colorado to an EV as soon as possible(they're always sold out). But your example is quite literally proof, that an ICE will outlast an EV.

tfourb 3y ago
If that's your experience with an EV it's most likely a warranty issue. Happens with ICE cars as well. So far, battery degradation for EV batteries (Tesla's to be exact) has been much less severe as has been feared: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... (also: I mistyped in my above comment. I meant to say 250.000km not 350.000 miles. Sorry about that)
- CalRobert 3y ago
  While you're at it you might as well go straight to Megameters which is much more fun.
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  So far most Teslas aren't exactly old enough to even consider using this data. We know ICEs can last for decades. We don't know how long Li-ion based EVs will last, practically. Theoretically they will not last as much as ICE. While we don't have conclusive data - let's not pretend that anything about EV's longevity is a fact. The only fact about EVs - they haven't been out long enough to make a statement based on empirical evidence. (Take it from an EV advocate in general and someone heavily invested in Tesla stock)
  - tfourb 3y ago