3 ms·

I don't speak German, could someone clarify this for me: did they publicly admit to that they were planning to commit crimes, or aid others in committing crimes

I don't speak German, could someone clarify this for me: did they publicly admit to that they were planning to commit crimes, or aid others in committing crimes? If they were publicly planning criminal acts I don't see much, if any, issue of physically removing them from the ability to commit the crime, but I would need more context to make a personal judgement.

sho_hn 3y ago
No, as far as I know, they did not specifically post time & day & intent of any crimes. They were known activists, and using a very controversial law, were preventatively taken into custody in the lead up of Germany's largest automotive expo. The bar you must jump to be able to do this to some one is state law, and differs by state. The bar in Bavara is, arguably, lower than in some other states by my (uneducated in the laws, so not very relevant) reading. For example in many German states, it requires a crime to be imminent. In Bavaria this is not the case.
- TheFreim 3y ago
  Thank you for the information. One follow up question: > They were known activists Does "activist" hear mean they'd previously engaged in illegal activity, i.e. blocking roadways or similar "protests"?
  - kioleanu 3y ago
    That is exactly what it means, yes
  - sho_hn 3y ago
    I assume so, yeah. The "Last Generation" is a loosely organized activist group that has been making headlines in the country for the past months, and by my understanding these were known associates/members of the org. One of their things to do is to glue themselves down in places to hinder others, think at events, on streets, tracks, airfields, etc. I don't know if there was concrete evidence of past crimes/actions for them. By my reading, Bavarian state law does not require this. In some other States, it is listed as one of the conditions to meet or "likely to repeat" is somehow baked into the lingo.
    - oldgradstudent 3y ago
      > One of their things to do is to glue themselves down in places to hinder others, think at events, on streets, tracks, airfields, etc. One would think that people gluing themselves to things is a self limiting problem.
  - burkaman 3y ago
    I don't know why you put that in quotes, I don't believe there has been a single successful activist movement in history that never had to break the law. That doesn't mean that all illegal protest is justified, but it does mean that the legality of an action is not useful in determining whether it's justified and effective.
- c4mpute 3y ago
  As far as the linked article says, at least some, if not all, of them were already found at similar blockades, some were also already judged guilty and fined: https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2023-09/letzte-generation-bayern-praeventivhaft-gewahrsam https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2023-09/letzt... > Zehn von ihnen waren laut Münchner Polizei während einer Blockade am Freitag in Gewahrsam genommen worden. Also, courts seem to perform some checks, there are reported cases where even repeat offenders were let go: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/vorbeugender-freiheitsentzug-fuer-klimaaktivisten-gerechtfertigt,TMWZDMu https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/vorbeugender-freiheitse... > So entschied zum Beispiel das Landgericht Landshut, dass ein rund sechstägiger Präventiv-Freiheitsentzug für Klima-Aktivisten unzulässig sei, die sich 2021 auf Autobahnbrücken rund um die Internationale Automobilausstellung (IAA) in München ein paar Meter abgeseilt hatten, worauf die Polizei den Verkehr stoppte. Kernargument: Eine Wiederholungsgefahr sei nicht hinreichend erkennbar. And there are several records of perpetrators announcing followup crimes right after having been judged. Some were even committing their next crime within a few hours: https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/kleber-aktivisten-letzte-generation-gefaengnis-strafe-haft-monatelang-rekordstrafe-klima-92217695.html https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/kleber-aktivisten-letzte-g...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
fh973 3y ago
State attorneys in Germany are not independent from the Ministry of Justice (because of that, Germany is currently not allowed to issue European Arrest Warrants). Also courts tend to confirm the status quo.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rightbyte 3y ago
Planning to do a crime is illegal too, so you could jail someone for that, if they are admitting to planning to do something criminal enough. However, the article states that there is no due process or actual accusation of a crime.
tfourb 3y ago
The activists have been arrested for participating in similar protests before and a court has deemed that they were likely to participate in similar protests again, and cause significant public disturbances. Others have pointed out that the state police law that these arrests are based on are very controversial and are currently challenged in court. I might add that the judiciary in Bavaria has a very pro-prosecution reputation in cases against progressive activists.

sho_hn 3y ago

No, as far as I know, they did not specifically post time & day & intent of any crimes. They were known activists, and using a very controversial law, were preventatively taken into custody in the lead up of Germany's largest automotive expo. The bar you must jump to be able to do this to some one is state law, and differs by state. The bar in Bavara is, arguably, lower than in some other states by my (uneducated in the laws, so not very relevant) reading. For example in many German states, it requires a crime to be imminent. In Bavaria this is not the case.

TheFreim 3y ago
Thank you for the information. One follow up question: > They were known activists Does "activist" hear mean they'd previously engaged in illegal activity, i.e. blocking roadways or similar "protests"?
- kioleanu 3y ago
  That is exactly what it means, yes
- sho_hn 3y ago
  I assume so, yeah. The "Last Generation" is a loosely organized activist group that has been making headlines in the country for the past months, and by my understanding these were known associates/members of the org. One of their things to do is to glue themselves down in places to hinder others, think at events, on streets, tracks, airfields, etc. I don't know if there was concrete evidence of past crimes/actions for them. By my reading, Bavarian state law does not require this. In some other States, it is listed as one of the conditions to meet or "likely to repeat" is somehow baked into the lingo.
  - oldgradstudent 3y ago
    > One of their things to do is to glue themselves down in places to hinder others, think at events, on streets, tracks, airfields, etc. One would think that people gluing themselves to things is a self limiting problem.
- burkaman 3y ago
  I don't know why you put that in quotes, I don't believe there has been a single successful activist movement in history that never had to break the law. That doesn't mean that all illegal protest is justified, but it does mean that the legality of an action is not useful in determining whether it's justified and effective.
c4mpute 3y ago
As far as the linked article says, at least some, if not all, of them were already found at similar blockades, some were also already judged guilty and fined: https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2023-09/letzte-generation-bayern-praeventivhaft-gewahrsam https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2023-09/letzt... > Zehn von ihnen waren laut Münchner Polizei während einer Blockade am Freitag in Gewahrsam genommen worden. Also, courts seem to perform some checks, there are reported cases where even repeat offenders were let go: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/vorbeugender-freiheitsentzug-fuer-klimaaktivisten-gerechtfertigt,TMWZDMu https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/vorbeugender-freiheitse... > So entschied zum Beispiel das Landgericht Landshut, dass ein rund sechstägiger Präventiv-Freiheitsentzug für Klima-Aktivisten unzulässig sei, die sich 2021 auf Autobahnbrücken rund um die Internationale Automobilausstellung (IAA) in München ein paar Meter abgeseilt hatten, worauf die Polizei den Verkehr stoppte. Kernargument: Eine Wiederholungsgefahr sei nicht hinreichend erkennbar. And there are several records of perpetrators announcing followup crimes right after having been judged. Some were even committing their next crime within a few hours: https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/kleber-aktivisten-letzte-generation-gefaengnis-strafe-haft-monatelang-rekordstrafe-klima-92217695.html https://www.merkur.de/deutschland/kleber-aktivisten-letzte-g...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

fh973 3y ago

State attorneys in Germany are not independent from the Ministry of Justice (because of that, Germany is currently not allowed to issue European Arrest Warrants). Also courts tend to confirm the status quo.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rightbyte 3y ago

Planning to do a crime is illegal too, so you could jail someone for that, if they are admitting to planning to do something criminal enough. However, the article states that there is no due process or actual accusation of a crime.

tfourb 3y ago

The activists have been arrested for participating in similar protests before and a court has deemed that they were likely to participate in similar protests again, and cause significant public disturbances. Others have pointed out that the state police law that these arrests are based on are very controversial and are currently challenged in court. I might add that the judiciary in Bavaria has a very pro-prosecution reputation in cases against progressive activists.