5 ms·

> maximum 60 days In the US, political prisoners have been jailed for years without trial. 60 days would be a major respite.

banannaise 3y ago
I'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). I am aware that the US has some pretty serious problems that are at least somewhat related, but I'm trying not to digress into that.
- skrause 3y ago
  > I'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). It's not a German law but a state law. Some states only allow 4 days, Berlin only 2 days: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam Of course it's Baravia which allows the (by far) longest detention with two months.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  This is outside criminal procedure, which is a federal matter. Since it's not a criminal proceeding, criminal courts don't have jurisdiction, and the rights you have in criminal proceedings do not apply. This is a state administrative matter instead. Legally speaking, this solitary detention is not even a punishment.
bsimpson 3y ago
We have a constitutional right to a speedy trial. That right can be waived to give the defense time to prepare, and it isn't always enforced for non-citizens detained abroad (e.g. Guantanamo), but I'm unaware of anything similar to the article happening in the US.
- nvahalik 3y ago
  See: January 6th. There are still many people in jail who haven't been to trial.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    A person who is in jail awaiting trial for attempting to overthrow the government of the United States is not a "political prisoner".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      In many cases they would be if they subscribed to a political ideology and committed acts because of them. In this case overthrowing is actual a protest that went out of control because of lax security. A real overthrow attempt would need to involve heavy weapons. Protesters didn't even have butter knives.
      - l33t7332273 3y ago
        > In this case overthrowing is actual a protest Only for some of the people involved. However, there were certainly people there attempting an actual overthrow[1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/14/oath-keepers-leader-charges-armed-plot-us-capitol-attack https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/14/oath-keepers...
  - thephyber 3y ago
    They are not political prisoners. They committed federal crimes while live-streaming it and the government has presented the evidence. It just so happens that the amount of evidence they generated while committing crimes overloaded the DOJ’s capacity to collect and organize it (both prerequisites for discovery by the defendants before they can build their defense). There have been a few defendants who have successfully challenged the speed of the trial and courts have let them off. It’s far more likely that the DOJ attorneys are simply overwhelmed with the prosecution than they are purposefully persecuting the arrested. > According to the George Washington Program on Extremism, the FBI has arrested 940 people in connection to January 6. Of those, 43 were convicted, 481 pleaded guilty, and 382 are still waiting for trial. Most of the people waiting are out on bail. [1] It so happens that the defendants all committed crimes on the same day, causing a backlog in prosecution work. It also happens that DC is a strange jurisdiction that requires coordination between federal officers of different departments (Capitol Police, Parks Police, Secret Service, etc) in a town that must get all funding passed through Congress, which is functionally broken most of the year. Terrible example of time-to-trial problems in the US, which is actually a significant issue, even in well funded jurisdictions. [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/170991/cpac-january-6-riot-prisoners https://newrepublic.com/article/170991/cpac-january-6-riot-p...
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/8/17/23310771/why-some-spend-years-rikers https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/8/17/23310771/why-some-spend-ye... Pretrial detention can often happen for years, it's one of the issues that makes guilty pleas so insidious. Even if you are innocent, wanting to get your day in court can require you to spend months in jail, so a guilty plea can actually be the more economical outcome.
  - bsimpson 3y ago
    I appreciate the context link. It's worth noting that one of the examples was someone changing his lawyer repeatedly. I don't believe the right to a speedy trial is violated if you're the one that causes your own delay.
- BurningFrog 3y ago
  In theory we have that right. In practice, 98% of criminal cases in the federal courts end with a plea bargain. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim...
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    We have the right to a speedy trial and a the right to accept a plea bargain. You can decline a plea bargain and demand a speedy trial; the limits are defined by law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedy_Trial_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedy_Trial_Act (As with other rights, these rights sometimes require active defense by civil rights organizations, nor are they completely absolute.)
    - joshuamorton 3y ago
      Note this only applies to federal trials, not state trials (where the vast majority of crimes are prosecuted).
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        It's often defined at the state level, too. Here in NY, prosecutors are required to be ready to go within six months (felony) or 90 days (misdemeanor): https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CPL/30.30 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CPL/30.30 The right exists whether or not your state has legislation defining a timeframe, too.
        joshuamorton 3y ago
        Yeah, absolutely the constitutional right exists, but it's often less well defined than the federal version, which is very clear and well followed.
    - BurningFrog 3y ago
      Few people choose this because of the "trail penalty". If you're found guilty in a trial, you get a 2-4 times longer sentence than the plea deal would have given. So the theoretical right to a trial remains, but exercising that right is heavily penalized. To me that means the right is for practical purposes no longer exists.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
znpy 3y ago
It seems that GP has deleted their comment before anyone else could reply. I'll report it here, verbatim, as i still have it open in another tab: ----- Are you talking about US citizens? I'm unaware of that in any recent decades, and I assume you're talking about recent history. More complicated cases take longer to prepare for trial, but can you point to a single example of a US citizen jailed for political purposes where their trial has clearly been delayed for political reasons? ----- and here is what i wanted to reply: > I'm unaware of that in any recent decades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuAAPsiD768 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuAAPsiD768 - " The secret US prisons you've never heard of before | Will Potter"
- pc86 3y ago
  Jails and prison are different.

banannaise 3y ago

I'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). I am aware that the US has some pretty serious problems that are at least somewhat related, but I'm trying not to digress into that.

skrause 3y ago
> I'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). It's not a German law but a state law. Some states only allow 4 days, Berlin only 2 days: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam Of course it's Baravia which allows the (by far) longest detention with two months.
formerly_proven 3y ago
This is outside criminal procedure, which is a federal matter. Since it's not a criminal proceeding, criminal courts don't have jurisdiction, and the rights you have in criminal proceedings do not apply. This is a state administrative matter instead. Legally speaking, this solitary detention is not even a punishment.

bsimpson 3y ago

We have a constitutional right to a speedy trial. That right can be waived to give the defense time to prepare, and it isn't always enforced for non-citizens detained abroad (e.g. Guantanamo), but I'm unaware of anything similar to the article happening in the US.

nvahalik 3y ago
See: January 6th. There are still many people in jail who haven't been to trial.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  A person who is in jail awaiting trial for attempting to overthrow the government of the United States is not a "political prisoner".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    In many cases they would be if they subscribed to a political ideology and committed acts because of them. In this case overthrowing is actual a protest that went out of control because of lax security. A real overthrow attempt would need to involve heavy weapons. Protesters didn't even have butter knives.
    - l33t7332273 3y ago
      > In this case overthrowing is actual a protest Only for some of the people involved. However, there were certainly people there attempting an actual overthrow[1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/14/oath-keepers-leader-charges-armed-plot-us-capitol-attack https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/14/oath-keepers...
- thephyber 3y ago
  They are not political prisoners. They committed federal crimes while live-streaming it and the government has presented the evidence. It just so happens that the amount of evidence they generated while committing crimes overloaded the DOJ’s capacity to collect and organize it (both prerequisites for discovery by the defendants before they can build their defense). There have been a few defendants who have successfully challenged the speed of the trial and courts have let them off. It’s far more likely that the DOJ attorneys are simply overwhelmed with the prosecution than they are purposefully persecuting the arrested. > According to the George Washington Program on Extremism, the FBI has arrested 940 people in connection to January 6. Of those, 43 were convicted, 481 pleaded guilty, and 382 are still waiting for trial. Most of the people waiting are out on bail. [1] It so happens that the defendants all committed crimes on the same day, causing a backlog in prosecution work. It also happens that DC is a strange jurisdiction that requires coordination between federal officers of different departments (Capitol Police, Parks Police, Secret Service, etc) in a town that must get all funding passed through Congress, which is functionally broken most of the year. Terrible example of time-to-trial problems in the US, which is actually a significant issue, even in well funded jurisdictions. [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/170991/cpac-january-6-riot-prisoners https://newrepublic.com/article/170991/cpac-january-6-riot-p...
joshuamorton 3y ago
https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/8/17/23310771/why-some-spend-years-rikers https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/8/17/23310771/why-some-spend-ye... Pretrial detention can often happen for years, it's one of the issues that makes guilty pleas so insidious. Even if you are innocent, wanting to get your day in court can require you to spend months in jail, so a guilty plea can actually be the more economical outcome.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  I appreciate the context link. It's worth noting that one of the examples was someone changing his lawyer repeatedly. I don't believe the right to a speedy trial is violated if you're the one that causes your own delay.
BurningFrog 3y ago
In theory we have that right. In practice, 98% of criminal cases in the federal courts end with a plea bargain. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim...
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  We have the right to a speedy trial and a the right to accept a plea bargain. You can decline a plea bargain and demand a speedy trial; the limits are defined by law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedy_Trial_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedy_Trial_Act (As with other rights, these rights sometimes require active defense by civil rights organizations, nor are they completely absolute.)
  - joshuamorton 3y ago
    Note this only applies to federal trials, not state trials (where the vast majority of crimes are prosecuted).
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      It's often defined at the state level, too. Here in NY, prosecutors are required to be ready to go within six months (felony) or 90 days (misdemeanor): https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CPL/30.30 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CPL/30.30 The right exists whether or not your state has legislation defining a timeframe, too.
      - joshuamorton 3y ago
        Yeah, absolutely the constitutional right exists, but it's often less well defined than the federal version, which is very clear and well followed.
  - BurningFrog 3y ago
    Few people choose this because of the "trail penalty". If you're found guilty in a trial, you get a 2-4 times longer sentence than the plea deal would have given. So the theoretical right to a trial remains, but exercising that right is heavily penalized. To me that means the right is for practical purposes no longer exists.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

znpy 3y ago

It seems that GP has deleted their comment before anyone else could reply. I'll report it here, verbatim, as i still have it open in another tab: ----- Are you talking about US citizens? I'm unaware of that in any recent decades, and I assume you're talking about recent history. More complicated cases take longer to prepare for trial, but can you point to a single example of a US citizen jailed for political purposes where their trial has clearly been delayed for political reasons? ----- and here is what i wanted to reply: > I'm unaware of that in any recent decades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuAAPsiD768 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuAAPsiD768 - " The secret US prisons you've never heard of before | Will Potter"

pc86 3y ago
Jails and prison are different.