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Justice Department sues Google for monopolizing digital advertising technologies

84 points by connor11528 3y ago

gabereiser 3y ago
What's to prevent them from just spinning this off under the Alphabet name? IANAL but wouldn't that be the logical course of action at Google to avoid the wrath of the justice department?
- connor11528 3y ago
  In the "remedies" section of the complaint they ask for "divestiture" which I'm pretty sure means spinning companies off out of Alphabet's hands. > Order the divestiture of, at minimum, the Google Ad Manager suite, including both Google’s publisher ad server, DFP, and Google’s ad exchange, AdX, along with any additional structural relief as needed to cure any anticompetitive harm;
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    They say Google in the quote, not Alphabet. IANAL but wouldn't it have to also say Google's Parent Company (Alphabet, Inc)?
    - djbusby 3y ago
      Terms may be (very likely) defined earlier in legal docs, like a variable of sorts. So in the quote Google could mean a complex description of the entity.
      - gabereiser 3y ago
        you're most likely right. Hereto "The Company" et al.
- paxys 3y ago
  "Spinning it off" under the same stock ticker, same CEO and same board of directors isn't how divestiture works.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    It wouldn't be the same ticker or CEO per se but you'd probably know more than I.
    - paxys 3y ago
      Why would it not? GOOG is the ticker for all of Alphabet, and Sundar Pichai is the CEO of Alphabet.
tantalor 3y ago
> Google pockets on average more than 30% of the advertising dollars that flow through its digital advertising technology products Say more about tech companies extracting 30% from their platform...
- connor11528 3y ago
  For real. Hopefully won't be long until there's a similar case against Apple https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/26/justice-department-antitrust-apple-00053939 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/26/justice-department-...
- CharlesW 3y ago
  You're going to really be shocked when you learn what percentage physical retailers "extract" from their platform.
  - asah 3y ago
    And dealers And distributors And sales reps And ...
  - paxys 3y ago
    The key here is "retailers". If there were exactly 2 retail companies worldwide that were controlling what we could buy/sell and extracting a tax from each sale, you can be sure there would be a hell of a lot more outrage and legislation than there is over the current mobile app store duopoly.
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    Most physical retailers face competitive market forces, unlike the two app stores that are vertically aligned with their software and/or hardware platforms.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      I'm not sure how that's relevant. Walmart (Android) can't sell in Target (iOS) stores.
altairprime 3y ago
> January 24, 2023 Previously on HN (246 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507230
metadat 3y ago
And now with Chrome as the dominant browser and the launch of F̶L̶o̶C̶ Topics, Google has strategically and systemically cemented it's position as the only entity who can effectively track individual user behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_Learning_of_Cohorts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_Learning_of_Cohorts I feel like a huge sucker accepting and taking up Chrome back in 2009. It isn't a huge shock they'd eventually want to extract and harvest "the value". It's the exploitative nature of the capitalist cycle. I remember thinking at the time it was suspicious to use a browser from an advertising company, but looking back in hindsight, you've gotta hand it to 'em - the bait was pretty good.. fast, performant, and reliable. No other browser engine had this. Even today, I primarily use Firefox on desktop, but with many tabs and windows open it's slower than Chrome. I'm even typing this from Brave on mobile..
- _boffin_ 3y ago
  Apple?
  - paxys 3y ago
    Safari has a <10% market share on desktop.
    - _boffin_ 3y ago
      I'm not talking about just desktop. I'm talking about apple having the ability to get full insight into what users are doing via their telemetry and other avenues.
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        How does apple have insight into what users are doing on desktop?
        _boffin_ 3y ago
        Gatekeeper https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-privacy-nightmare/ https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-...
PleasureBot 3y ago
Will be interesting to see how the judge views this case. Anti-trust laws mostly focus on economic harm to consumers. Obviously many modern tech companies offer their products for free and then sell the data they collect from their users. I am curious how the Justice Department will argue to the judge that economic harm is being done to consumers when Google's products are nominally free. It may be that US anti-trust laws just need to be rewritten to more effectively target tech companies because I think the Justice Department could have a hard time making this case under our current laws.
- connor11528 3y ago
  The law they’re prosecuting them under is from 1890 and doesn’t mention consumer welfare once. The judiciary has made up and implemented the consumer welfare standard without the approval of Congress. Agree it’s gunna be interesting how the government pursues the case! I haven’t read the full complaint yet but I plan to :)

84 points by connor11528 3y ago

What's to prevent them from just spinning this off under the Alphabet name? IANAL but wouldn't that be the logical course of action at Google to avoid the wrath of the justice department?

connor11528 3y ago
In the "remedies" section of the complaint they ask for "divestiture" which I'm pretty sure means spinning companies off out of Alphabet's hands. > Order the divestiture of, at minimum, the Google Ad Manager suite, including both Google’s publisher ad server, DFP, and Google’s ad exchange, AdX, along with any additional structural relief as needed to cure any anticompetitive harm;
- gabereiser 3y ago
  They say Google in the quote, not Alphabet. IANAL but wouldn't it have to also say Google's Parent Company (Alphabet, Inc)?
  - djbusby 3y ago
    Terms may be (very likely) defined earlier in legal docs, like a variable of sorts. So in the quote Google could mean a complex description of the entity.
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      you're most likely right. Hereto "The Company" et al.
paxys 3y ago
"Spinning it off" under the same stock ticker, same CEO and same board of directors isn't how divestiture works.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  It wouldn't be the same ticker or CEO per se but you'd probably know more than I.
  - paxys 3y ago
    Why would it not? GOOG is the ticker for all of Alphabet, and Sundar Pichai is the CEO of Alphabet.

tantalor 3y ago

> Google pockets on average more than 30% of the advertising dollars that flow through its digital advertising technology products Say more about tech companies extracting 30% from their platform...

connor11528 3y ago
For real. Hopefully won't be long until there's a similar case against Apple https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/26/justice-department-antitrust-apple-00053939 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/26/justice-department-...
CharlesW 3y ago
You're going to really be shocked when you learn what percentage physical retailers "extract" from their platform.
- asah 3y ago
  And dealers And distributors And sales reps And ...
- paxys 3y ago
  The key here is "retailers". If there were exactly 2 retail companies worldwide that were controlling what we could buy/sell and extracting a tax from each sale, you can be sure there would be a hell of a lot more outrage and legislation than there is over the current mobile app store duopoly.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  Most physical retailers face competitive market forces, unlike the two app stores that are vertically aligned with their software and/or hardware platforms.
  - CharlesW 3y ago
    I'm not sure how that's relevant. Walmart (Android) can't sell in Target (iOS) stores.

altairprime 3y ago

> January 24, 2023 Previously on HN (246 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507230

metadat 3y ago

And now with Chrome as the dominant browser and the launch of F̶L̶o̶C̶ Topics, Google has strategically and systemically cemented it's position as the only entity who can effectively track individual user behavior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_Learning_of_Cohorts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_Learning_of_Cohorts I feel like a huge sucker accepting and taking up Chrome back in 2009. It isn't a huge shock they'd eventually want to extract and harvest "the value". It's the exploitative nature of the capitalist cycle. I remember thinking at the time it was suspicious to use a browser from an advertising company, but looking back in hindsight, you've gotta hand it to 'em - the bait was pretty good.. fast, performant, and reliable. No other browser engine had this. Even today, I primarily use Firefox on desktop, but with many tabs and windows open it's slower than Chrome. I'm even typing this from Brave on mobile..

_boffin_ 3y ago
Apple?
- paxys 3y ago
  Safari has a <10% market share on desktop.
  - _boffin_ 3y ago
    I'm not talking about just desktop. I'm talking about apple having the ability to get full insight into what users are doing via their telemetry and other avenues.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      How does apple have insight into what users are doing on desktop?
      - _boffin_ 3y ago
        Gatekeeper https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-privacy-nightmare/ https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-...

PleasureBot 3y ago

Will be interesting to see how the judge views this case. Anti-trust laws mostly focus on economic harm to consumers. Obviously many modern tech companies offer their products for free and then sell the data they collect from their users. I am curious how the Justice Department will argue to the judge that economic harm is being done to consumers when Google's products are nominally free. It may be that US anti-trust laws just need to be rewritten to more effectively target tech companies because I think the Justice Department could have a hard time making this case under our current laws.

connor11528 3y ago
The law they’re prosecuting them under is from 1890 and doesn’t mention consumer welfare once. The judiciary has made up and implemented the consumer welfare standard without the approval of Congress. Agree it’s gunna be interesting how the government pursues the case! I haven’t read the full complaint yet but I plan to :)