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> tech used to be about solving hard problems that made human life better It's unclear to me when this was ever "purely" true. Tobacco companies, for example,

> tech used to be about solving hard problems that made human life better It's unclear to me when this was ever "purely" true. Tobacco companies, for example, definitely used cutting-edge (for its era) agro-tech to increase yields, potency, etc since like the 1950s and earlier. Tech has been developing weapons, addictive substances, and useless consumer goods since the industrial revolution (at least). The history of technology is chock-full of abominations. For every "refrigerator" there's "holes in the ozone layer", for every "golden rice" there's "Agent Orange". I 100% agree that modern consumer society is absolutely out of control, and that tech is a major driver, but I see this as an intensification/elaboration of trends that have been in place for centuries rather than a paradigm shift from a previously benign era. As much as I love the various cultural trappings of 90s tech-optimism (and I do love many things about that era) I think it was ultimately kind of a delusion brought on by the complete global dominance of the US economic model (following the end of the Cold War), alongside the headiness of the dot-com bubble, rather than a clear-sighted vision for the future of "technology" (wherever you draw the line on what that is). Not trying to shame anyone who participated in that scene, or say that it was "bad" or "wrong", but I do think that we can't really afford to be sentimental these days. We need to honestly assess the shortfalls of the movements that brought us here.

Turing_Machine 3y ago
> Tobacco companies, for example, definitely used cutting-edge (for its era) agro-tech to increase yields, potency, etc since like the 1950s and earlier. The invention of the automatic cigarette rolling machine was a huge step.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
To emphasize, I agree with you. I don't think "back in the good ol' days" that things were always benevolent, nor do I believe that today that things are always evil. But I do think it's a mistake to say this is just another step, or going from an "8 to a 9". I think this idea that so much of our technology is actively hostile is a part of the puzzle around why many people feel that our pace of real technological advancement and our ability to build big projects has slowed greatly (Patrick Collison has a great blog piece, https://patrickcollison.com/fast https://patrickcollison.com/fast) I feel part of this is a consequence of the fact that we've gotten so good at data analysis, when you look at 2 alternatives and one shows an immediate, clear payoff (but the downsides are long term and not all that clear), while the other shows a riskier, longer term payoff, we (collectively) nearly always go with the short term win. E.g we can see with A/B testing what keeps people the most "engaged", but we just kind of ignore that this "engagement" is with the lowest common denominator of content like rage-inducing tribalism.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Interesting read, I've definitely heard similar things through various podcast-y outlets (I think there was a "The Weeds" episode about this phenomenon a few years back). I could see an argument that all the engineering talent getting sucked into working on stupid, anti-human projects is a big source of this slowdown. It does seem like over the last decade or so grad degree programs have transitioned from "here's the training you need to work on the cutting edge of your field" to "here's what you need to get picked up by the data science arm of an ad tech company". I will say that going from an 8 to a 9 may come with "phase change" type effects, and personally I believe this is more in line with what's going on. Consumer capitalism has sort of metastasized in the US, and is basically eating our ability to do anything but generate more widgets rather than actual value. Curious to see how/if we pull out of the doom loop

Turing_Machine 3y ago

> Tobacco companies, for example, definitely used cutting-edge (for its era) agro-tech to increase yields, potency, etc since like the 1950s and earlier. The invention of the automatic cigarette rolling machine was a huge step.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

To emphasize, I agree with you. I don't think "back in the good ol' days" that things were always benevolent, nor do I believe that today that things are always evil. But I do think it's a mistake to say this is just another step, or going from an "8 to a 9". I think this idea that so much of our technology is actively hostile is a part of the puzzle around why many people feel that our pace of real technological advancement and our ability to build big projects has slowed greatly (Patrick Collison has a great blog piece, https://patrickcollison.com/fast https://patrickcollison.com/fast) I feel part of this is a consequence of the fact that we've gotten so good at data analysis, when you look at 2 alternatives and one shows an immediate, clear payoff (but the downsides are long term and not all that clear), while the other shows a riskier, longer term payoff, we (collectively) nearly always go with the short term win. E.g we can see with A/B testing what keeps people the most "engaged", but we just kind of ignore that this "engagement" is with the lowest common denominator of content like rage-inducing tribalism.

tech_ken 3y ago
Interesting read, I've definitely heard similar things through various podcast-y outlets (I think there was a "The Weeds" episode about this phenomenon a few years back). I could see an argument that all the engineering talent getting sucked into working on stupid, anti-human projects is a big source of this slowdown. It does seem like over the last decade or so grad degree programs have transitioned from "here's the training you need to work on the cutting edge of your field" to "here's what you need to get picked up by the data science arm of an ad tech company". I will say that going from an 8 to a 9 may come with "phase change" type effects, and personally I believe this is more in line with what's going on. Consumer capitalism has sort of metastasized in the US, and is basically eating our ability to do anything but generate more widgets rather than actual value. Curious to see how/if we pull out of the doom loop